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Difference here is that Carlson bounced back after his poor start last year. That and his relatively short time in the game. Dejong hasn’t bounced back for 3 years now.
I’d like to see the stats that show Carlson has bounced back this year. Carlson was fine last year. So no bounce back needed from there. It’s his performance this year that is the mark he has to bounce back from.
You guys are missing the fact that Mo is delaying the beginning of Gorman’s service time ($$$). Mo and Marmol are dumbing down the fans with deceptive excuses. I’m surprised you guys still think Mo’s main goal is to win. Someone please tell me what makes them think Mo’s motivation is to win?
We might see him next year but remember DeJong’s contract isn’t over until the end of next year.
Everything done is baseball has money as a root cause. The matter here as I see it is the major investment made in DeJong. That is far more money at stake than one year of arbitration for Gorman three years from now.
The main reason we aren’t seeing Gorman, IMO, is NOT his defense, strikeouts, service time or anything else. It is the question of when to throw in the towel on DeJong. The Cards aren’t ready to do it yet.
I wonder what DeJong has done at the plate the past 2 1/2 seasons that makes the Cardinals think he will turn things around?
Wasn’t the first half of 2019 the last good performance period for him?
Missed a great opportunity tô promote Gorman. Sosa should be back in 5-10 days. This would have been a great opportunity for Gorman tô get his feet wet.
Carlson being younger than dejong has nothing to do with what I said. In fact the fact he is younger, means more reason to send him down to work on things. We have guys coming up that may play their way past these guys. Time will tell.
Dewitt will exhaust every option until he feels he gotten a return from his busted investment. No matter if it’s a negative return or not. We saw it when they held on too long to Peralta, Fowler, Cecil and a couple others through the years.
Many teams delay a good players service time and then make excuses for doing so because it’s against the rules. The Mo and Marmol DeJong interviews for example. Anyway, a good example of this is what happened to Kris Bryant. There are more benefits to delaying besides one year of arbitration three years from now.
I frequently see misunderstandings about Kris Bryant’s situation. His service time manipulation had nothing to do with arbitration eligibility. It was free agency.
Bryant’s grievance was that he tore up spring training and was ready for MLB but did not make the team on Opening Day. The Cubs kept him down in Triple-A just long enough to miss a full year of service. He made his debut on April 17, 2015. That kept him from free agency and indentured him to the Cubs for an additional season. This does not apply to Gorman as that date has passed.
However, Bryant was in fact called up soon enough to get four years of arbitration – he was a Super Two.
If the Cardinals’ only concern was free agency, Gorman could have been called up already.
The money for one year of arbitration for Gorman is relatively small compared to what they would have to eat if they give up on DeJong.
…if they give up on DeJong.
In the mis 80s I had a Ford Pinto that was running on 3 cylinders. I drove it like that all summer hoping it would miraculously start hitting on all four again. Finaly I gave up on it and got what I could at the scrap yard.
If the FO doesn’t want to eat $ on the PDJ contract, they will need to find a mutual dump partner.
A comparably struggling pitcher could be lost in the pen doing mop-up, for PDJ, while opening up a middle infield spot.
If they haven’t helped fix PDJ by now, trade for a different project?
Carpenter was essentially a ph and very spot starter by the all star break last year.
If DeJong doesn’t turn things around by the end of May may be that’s what is in store for him – could also have an ‘injury’ and do a couple of long stints on the DL.
Brian, I dont agree that an extra year of arbitration for Gorman is trivial tô what they would eat by giving up on Dejong. Dejong hás 15 million guaranteed (this year and next). Bryant’s extra year of arbitration netted him $19.5 million.
Sjeff – pretty sure they it is not against the rules. That is why Bryant lost his service time case. Even less chance of a player winnjng now since it was addressed in the CBA via other remedies.
I think PDJ hás trade value hás a defensiva first SS nas power bat off the bench. I think that the Cards could get a teams top 10-20 prospect if the Cards chipped in +/- $10 million in salary over the next 2 years. The adquirindo team would have the possible upside of him turning it around and the inexpensive option years if he does.
CC, that is not a valid comparison. It is not the final year of arbitration that was extra. It was the first one of the four, when he had 2+ years of service. For Bryant, that first year was $10.85 million, but one would have to subtract from that what he would have made if non-arb eligible.
In the new CBA, there is a pre-arbitration pool of $50 million for the top 100 pre-arb players. Gorman will get a chance to earn a piece of that to help close the gap.
Also, and the most relevant point to me, is that the Super Two deadline has not yet passed. Until it does and Gorman is still in the minors, he could still earn four seasons of arbitration. Depending on timing, this may assume that once he comes up, he will never go down again. That may not be realistic, though. Even Carlson was sent down for a while – not to manage his service time, but because he wasn’t hitting.
It is a long winded way of saying, no service time has yet been manipulated with Gorman as I see it. Unlike Bryant, he didn’t earn a job out of camp and was sent down when he shouldn’t have.
In the big picture – the one that matters most – this doesn’t mean the team couldn’t be winning more games right now with Gorman in the lineup vs. DeJong, but they aren’t ready to make that switch yet. That is my broadest point – I feel strongly that the main reason Gorman isn’t up is because they haven’t yet given up on DeJong as a starter. All the rest is secondary, IMO.
Gorman’s overall numbers are impressive, but the K’s (36%) are very concerning, considering they will likely go up in MLB….
Gorman must be selling out more for power now, because in a much longer period of time in the same league last season, his K rate was below 20%. So he has already shown he can do it.
Brian, thanks for the explanation in an overly complicated arena of rules.
I give them too much credit, trying to make sense of this bizarre FO. It’s a very disappointing organization comparatively speaking, where it’s evident winning is on the list of priorities for many teams.
Happy to clarify. FWIW, Katie Woo also doesn’t feel that service time is a big deal.
The service time deadline expired in mid-April (you can argue Super 2, but it’s incredibly difficult to predict those things).
There are plenty of valid points for both sides, (which I try to provide) though I do not believe service time is the overall factor here.
— Katie Woo (@katiejwoo) May 6, 2022
I agree service time is not the overall factor.
The “extra season” service time deadline has passed, but the super2 deadline hasn’t.
We are 30 service days into the season. Super2 cutoff has averaged 2.127 for the last 5 seasons. 127 days from the calendar 187 day regular season schedule suggests a player missing 60 days minimum, over 3 seasons or more, would not qualify for Super2 Arb pay. We’re halfway to Super2 cutoff.
You are correct Brian. Gorman’s situation is not about service time. I doubt it is about Super 2 either.
It is about:
1. Do they want to pay DeJong $15M the next two years to be a bench player if they can’t trade him?
2. Will the Edman/Gorman middle infield combo be good enough defensively? This is a huge factor. Edman has won a gold at 2B and DeJong, despite his offensive woes, is a good defender.
3. Do they want to bring Gorman up to DH? How will this impact Dickerson and Pujols, who the Cardinals are paying a combined $7.5M?
4. Does Gorman’s K rate give the organization pause?
While I think it’s time to try an alternative to DeJong, I don’t think he is still playing due to his contract. I believe he is still playing because the team still believes he can turn it around. They believe he can still be the DeJong who hit .435/536/.826/1.362 in spring training. While it may appear to be due to money, he has been paid the money because he has the ability to be good. I think he actually thinks TOO much, like he stated this offseason. He needs to just relax and play the game.
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