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I don’t want to move any infielders to the outfield until we absolutely have to. We will have a much improved OF next year and certainly by 2022 just through getting rid of players like Fowler and finding a good, young replacement in FA.
As players come through the system, 25, you’re going to have to do some of that, just to make sure they get playing time.
You can’t have two third basemen playing third base at the same time on the same team.As an organization, the Cardinals do not move players off positions to easier ones until they show they cannot handle it defensively. They do not make defensive moves trying to guess future MLB needs, because the environment can and does change later.
The minors have the designated hitter to help spread at-bats around. It may not be ideal, but they have made it work when needed.
This is especially important in 2021. They need to let players play in real games to make evaluations before doing position shuffling. Alternate camp was not the same. At least that is my opinion.
Players have to continue to develop defensive too, playing in live game situations. With only 4 levels going forward, how do you do that with all of your third basemen, Brian?
Your paragraph 2 talks about the DH and spreading at bats around, Brian. I’m talking about developing defensive skills at a position. How do Mendoza and Montero both get enough time at 3B at Memphis in 2021? Gorman will probably be at 3B at Springfield so there’s a backward block.
Rotating the use of the DH is the most direct answer to how two players at the same position can coexist in the same lineup. Thought that was clear, but to be specific…
If Nunez and Walker are on the same team, they split time between third and DH until one stands out enough to be promoted ahead (or one struggles so badly, he must be demoted).
Mendoza is already a utility guy so he can play other positions most of the time. Further, he should be a lower priority than Montero, but he can play third when Montero DHs.
My bottom line remains the same. None of this is serious enough to move top 15 prospects in the system to lesser positions.
Well, Brian, we all have our opinions. I’ve done a lot of coaching and if I’m developing a third baseman, I want him in the lineup everyday. I don’t want him sitting on the bench as a DH half the time. I want him working on day to day consistency at that position throughout the season.
Plus, as you know, there’s some precedence with the Cardinals re changing positions with third basemen Piscotty and Kelly. I’ll have stay with the opinion I’m comfortable with.You can stay with whatever opinion you want, but thank goodness you don’t run player development.
For the record, Piscotty and Kelly are NOT NOT playing third base today because they were moved to make room for others. It was a different situation entirely from what you are suggesting is the case now. They were drafted together but were not on the same minor league teams as one was a collegian and the other was a high schooler.
They changed positions because in the view of coaches, they were not going to make it as major league third basemen. It is a difficult position to play well at the highest level. On the other hand, Patrick Wisdom, selected in the same draft, stayed there because his defense continued to improve, but in his case, the bat turned out to be not good enough. So none of them made it at third base in the bigs. But their developmental decisions were made based on their own situations, completely independent of other players.
Like I said, these things have a way of working themselves out without having to make artificial moves. That is what baseball people would say and do say.
Believe me, I know full well why Piscotty and Kelly were moved and Wisdom stayed. They weren’t cut out for 3B. And that’s exactly what I’m saying. You don’t know if they’re cut out for the position until you see how they’re developing there. And you don’t see how they’re developing until you give them a full shot there. I’ll stay with my assessment of the situation with our third base prospects. Thanks for your input, BW.
Do you change the narrative on purpose or do you just forget what you post? If you scroll back, this discussion began with you noting by name what you believe is the shortage of OF talent. You then made this statement:
“We’d better think about moving several of #2 Gorman, #4 Montero, #7 Walker, #12 Winn, and #15 Nunez to the outfield.”
That is how and when the discussion moved to third.
This has nothing to do with their abilities or their playing time. You want to move some of the best third basemen in the system to the OF because you think that is the best way to fill the OF pipeline.
Then, you shifted to a concern that all of these third basemen (except Winn who had no business being mentioned here) cannot be kept at the position because there isn’t enough room on the teams for them to play. A different point entirely.
Then we went down the path of reviewing Piscotty and Kelly, who had even less to do with your original idea of making position changes specifically to beef up the OF.
It is like chasing a moving target. The only thing that is consistent is that I disagree with it all.
Mendoza and Montero are on different levels prospect wise. Montero has lost considerable development time due to injury and the lost Covid minor league season. If it is decided for him to stay at the hot corner in 2021, then he should play every day at Memphis. Mendoza was on course to be developed as a utility infielder, and should start at third when MOntero DH’s, or is moved off of the position. Also, it seems that some seemingly tough roster decisions work themselves out naturally.
My personal opinion is that Montero will move positions, but that may not be in 2021.
All I know is that someday, if they all make it, the Cardinals may want Gorman, Montero, Nunez, and Walker in the lineup. And they can’t all play 3B at the same time. So some of them may have to change positions. JMHO.
All I know is that someday, if they all make it, the Cardinals may want Gorman, Montero, Nunez, and Walker in the lineup. And they can’t all play 3B at the same time.
Well, shifts do get weirder and weirder all the time….lol
I think Brian’s overall point stands. The pecking order of defense always seems to be C/SS-CF-2B-3B-RF-LF-1B-DH. Moving a guy down the order until you’re sure he’s not gonna make it is rare. I also think there are plenty of spots for all our 3B prospects still, with room to move up or down depending on how they play.
Memphis-Montero
Springfield-Gorman
Palm Beach-Fill In
Peoria-Nunez
GCL-WalkerI think the position will sort itself out eventually. It would be a nice problem to have if all four of those guys are in the majors in 4 years and the Cards have to find a place to play them. There’s a ton of potential in those bats so if they all make it, it will be a coup for the scouting and development team in St Louis.
I’ll also agree with C27 that Montero will probably move positions, as Gorman will be the priority 3B. It’s possible that Montero plays the Albert Pujols 2001 role with some 3B, some LF when he comes up. Probably DH too if it’s there.
Finally, the Masyn Winn to the OF comment doesn’t make a lot of sense. Not like we are brimming with SS prospects either. Besides Sosa, who may be gone, and Perez, who probably won’t hit enough to be more than a reserve, what else is there in the system? Edit-I forgot Mateo Gil, who is a sneaky good prospect. Stinks when we never get to see these guys anymore.
25 – is it safe to say that the only position outside of catcher that is fairly deep in prospects in our system is 3B? And that if you go up and down in the system it sticks out that OF prospects are in general pretty pathetic?
BC-I don’t personally expect every part of the system to be stacked with prospects all the time. The way that I categorize it is by young players that we control at the time. We currently have 3 years of Bader, 4 years of O’Neill, 5 years of Thomas and 6 years of Carlson at the MLB level. In the minors, we have less certainty of talent, but we also have plenty of young control so that we don’t necessarily need the talent immediately.
As for who’s there, I really like the upside of Torres and Fletcher, even if they are a ways out. Toerner has a chance to be a sneaky major league player, and Hurst, Nootbar or Pinder could be that guy too (A and A+ stats tend to make these guys look worse than you’d think due to the tough park conditions in our system).
So while I agree that there is a hole as far as filling needed OF spots soon, I also don’t see it as a huge issue since there is still young talent in the MLB OF and the Cards should have money to spend for 2022 and beyond if needed.
Now, SS…there’s Paul Dejong and…?… available at the big league level. That’s a dire position of need.
SS is indeed thin. Very thin. Guys like Perez and Gil aren’t developing very well. Others like Sosa and Robertson may be good 5/6 infielders.
Alec Burleson is another OF prospect to keep an eye on. He is the guy we selected with the Ozuna compensation pick.
I’m wondering why Sosa hasn’t been talked about more. He had an outstanding 2019.
If Edman can okay OF, why not Sosa?There’s also Patrick Romeri. In the 2020 prospect guide, Brian thought Romeri was an outfield prospect that would emerge in 2020.
For the infield there’s Jeremy Rivas, the Venezualen infielder they signed July 2, 2019. He’s not really a prospect yet, but the Cardinals gave him a $600,000 signing bonus which is at the high end of what the Cardinals will give to international signees now that they are they are now going for quantity rather than hype.
It’s not likely to happen, but I still think Lindor, if they can extend him, is the best move the Cardinals could make this offseason. DeJong moves to third until one of our third baseman is ready.
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