Our Younger OFers

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  • #145185
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    I really wish I could get on board with Bader and O’Neill. I am on board with Fowler (unfortunately), Carlson, and a good addition for left field. The same I think with with most posters.

    We know who several of those guys are. We know that Fowler is a below average hitter and fielder who is only going to get PT based on his salary. A savvy GM would find a way to get rid of him this off-season or early in 2021. Bader is a below average hitter with elite defense. He’s a perfect backup CFer or even a starter if you have a good offense. That’s not a luxury the Cards have.

    The other two are definitely incompletes/unknowns. O’Neill has been an above average hitter with high Ks and low walks, an average hitter with high Ks and average walks, and a below average hitter with medium high Ks and above average walks in his career so far. He also has been anywhere from an average to an elite fielder. Carlson looked overmatched on his first call up, but much better the second time. He looks solid to good on defense, especially in corners. He would be the slowest defender by far in an OF rotation of O’Neill, Bader, Thomas and himself, so smart play would be needed to make him a very good defender. He has a high ceiling though and should get every chance to work through an entire season of ABs next year.

    Any outside addition comes with its own risks…mainly, age for Brantley or Turner, platoon concerns for Pederson or Rosario, trade cost, etc. And all this comes with a budget that would force Mo to give up needed pieces for 2021 to make room for any addition in 2021. The cost might be much more expensive than any gains.

    #145189
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    bccran said:

    I’m not complaining so much about the trade as I am about not doing anything after the trade.

    This is very understandable, but you sure took a circuitous route to get to your point. The Cards took a risk on the remaining players and it did not pan out. Of course, we all knew that already.

    Looking forward, different posters have different logic about what should be done (or not) this winter, which is the subject of an entirely different thread.

    #145199
    Avatarbccran
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    I thought I was right on point talking about the subject of this thread. But happy to pose it in a different way, BW. So far, as you said, O’Neill, Bader, Thomas, and Williams haven’t risen to the level hoped for. So going forward, what would you do? Fowler is gone after next year. That gives us an entire outfield to fill in the next 18 months. Sans perhaps Carlson.

    #145201
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    In mentioning the threads, I was just pointing out that this view has been more backward-looking and the other thread, “Cardinals Off-Season Needs,” is forward-looking to 2021. That delineation might help to avoid the same points being made in two different places. That is all.

    #145202
    Avatarbccran
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    So is the purpose of this thread to talk about our young outfielders past performance or about their possible future performance? Or both? I think the poster who started this thread suggested both. Didn’t he, BW? And this thread was started on July 2 vs. the “needs” thread started on October 3. This thread is position specific vs. more general in nature. Just an observation.

    #145204
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    I’ve already stated what I would do in the off-season in the thread about that, so I am not going to duplicate my answer here. You can proceed as you like, but I did not want to ignore the question you asked me.

    #145205
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    Okay, so then let’s just have one big thread to deal with all off season ideas. And that will cover all position players plus the rotation, plus the bullpen. And then let’s clarify like 25 wants that we can’t talk about part performance because we’re only talking about the future. Reminds me of McGwire – “I’m not here to talk about the past……..”

    #145309
    Avatarforsch31
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    bccran

    Bader’s okay if you have bats in the rest of the lineup. If you’re below where you want to be offensively at 3B and in left and right field, you don’t have the luxury of having HB in CF.

    Since this is a more appropriate thread to discuss your comment in the Awards thread, I will make my reply here.

    What OF on the Cardinals team outperformed Bader in 2020? Here is every player who might have played OF in 2020 with more than 25 PAs:

    O’Neill – 68 OPS+ 70 wRC+
    Bader – 111 OPS+ 113 wRC+
    Fowler – 92 OPS+ 95 wRC+
    Edman – 87 OPS+ 90 wRC+
    Carlson – 66 OPS+ 65 wRC+
    Ravelo – 45 OPS+ 44 wRC+
    Thomas – 22 OPS+ 25 wRC+

    That is 2 quick, all-encompassing measures that aggregate all the areas of offense. Yes, 2 of them had a higher BA but Bader had the highest OBP. He isn’t looked at as a big bat so just getting on base is important.

    #145313
    Avatarbccran
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    You’re kidding aren’t you, 25? If Bader is a better offense player than Edman and Carlson, why was he in the 9 slot?

    #145314
    Avatarbccran
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    That goes for you too, Forsch.

    #145334
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    You’re kidding aren’t you, 25? If Bader is a better offense player than Edman and Carlson, why was he in the 9 slot?

    I didn’t make the comment, but Shildt is nothing if not predictable in how he sets his lineups. Bader, utilized properly, can be a weapon. He’s especially good against lefties and probably should be hitting leadoff in those games. Of course, Edman hits lefties well too and could be an option. But if Shildt is filling out the card, the leadoff man will remain the same.

    #145345
    Avatarbccran
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    So the reason why Bader is batting 9th is mainly because of the manager? Is Bader a relative, 25?

    #145346
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    The manager is not very good at changing things when he’s got a particular view in mind. It’s very similar to the last manager. Shildt is a better motivator, though (but not as good of a person).

    #145348
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    How do we gauge from here how good of a person and a motivator an MLB manager is? Feels very subjective to me…

    #145349
    Avatarbccran
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    I guess you don’t know much about Shildt as a person. Have you ever met him?

    #145352
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    How do we gauge from here how good of a person and a motivator an MLB manager is? Feels very subjective to me…

    Randy Arozarena gave me all the info I needed on the former front.

    And you are right, it’s subjective. Objectively, Shildt took basically the same team that Matheny had and won a lot more games. There was some clear difference there.

    #145353
    Avatargscottar
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    Well if we are going to talk managers I think Shildt is light years better than his predecessor. Yes, he clings to giving veteran players too much benefit of the doubt like MM did but Shildt is much better with in game strategy and game management in my opinion. I don’t know how to prove that with stats but just the eyeball test watching the games it seems true to me.

    I think Bader is a good fit to hit 9th because of his speed. It is almost like having two leadoff hitters.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by Avatargscottar.
    #145359
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    I think Bader is a good fit to hit 9th because of his speed. It is almost like having two leadoff hitters.

    That’s a really good point. He’s sort of like a rich man’s Billy Hamilton in that if he gets on base, he’s trouble. We have seen the way that he can change a game when he’s on the base paths, and it’s a nice change of pace from the lumbering OFers we had circa 2016.

    #145361
    Avatarforsch31
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    Bc, you have many times stated that the most recent year’s info is the MOST relevant. Bader outperformed EVERY OFer on the Cardinals, according to the stats. Do you believe the stats are made up?

    As far as where he hits in the order, I would bat him at the end of the lineup, also. He should be getting on base ahead of the big bats.

    #145362
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    He’s not one of the young OFs but here’s an interview with Fowler. Its a little insight on what makes Dexter tick…. rapid Q&As. Its a fun read.

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2914696-dexter-fowler-talks-cubs-world-series-title-barry-bonds-more-in-br-ama

    #145363
    jj-cf-stljj-cf-stl
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    Back when the NL was the NL, you didn’t dare bat Yadi 8th or 9th because a sac bunt became a DP. We always had Wong, Edman, Bader types batting 8th and 9th. Guys who can run, and score.

    This season the DH got slotted mid-lineup and the bottom of the order only changed with Wong moving to leadoff. It’s still Bader, Wong, Edman as RC/G ahead of Goldy.

    #145371
    Avatarbccran
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    Any guess on who had the best %
    of runs produced (runs scored plus RBI per plate appearance) of all the outfielders?

    #145374
    Avatarforsch31
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    Yes. Here is the top seven from best to worst:

    Fowler
    Ravelo
    Bader
    Edman
    O’Neill
    Carlson
    Thomas

    #145418
    Avatarbccran
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    Wonder, with his speed, why Bader doesn’t steal more bases.

    #145459
    Avatarbccran
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    In reviewing the 2020 TCN Top 50 prospect list, there are only 6 outfielders mentioned –

    #1 – Carlson
    #14 – Torrez (.167/.240/.212/.452 at Peoria)
    #17 – Williams
    #18 – Fletcher (.228/.271/.325/.585 at Johnson City)
    #33 – Toerner (.211/.338/.367/.705 at Springfield)
    #41 – Capel (232/.283/.352/.635 at Springfield)

    Wow. We’d better think about moving several of #2 Gorman, #4 Montero, #7 Walker, #12 Winn, and #15 Nunez to the outfield.

Viewing 25 posts - 151 through 175 (of 313 total)
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