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I summarized my take here.
bikemike, I forgot to include Dusty among the managers fired after taking their team into the playoffs last season.
Mike Matheny may be a fine individual, but the only travesty here is that he wasn’t fired sooner than he was. It should have happened no later than last season and it could be said it could have been before that. I’m never happy to see someone lose their job so I am taking no joy in this moment. But this had to be done. This season may still be lost and more house cleaning may be required. But for now the remodel is at least underway. I’m just not sure I trust Mo to be doing the remodel. But for today, I can have hope again that they have a chance to head in the right direction in the near future.
I agree that Matheny was a nice man, by all accounts, but simply not a good manager and had to go. But he had zero at-bats this year, recorded no fielding percentage, did no base-running and, as far as I know, made no trades or acquisitions. Thus, it would appear, there is still a lot of work to do.
Wow, I’m shocked that it happened in season. I figured they would wait until at least the end of the year, but it was clearly looking like this team was giving up. I guess in the end they had to make the move for the sake of appearing to try this year. I’m not sure how this will go over, but unless they can make up ground on Chicago after the break I think you may see a sell off at the deadline as well.
Different topic but the sell-off should have happened last year at the end of July. It should happen without doubt this July. Time to reset this thing and that started last night.
“It’s a real shame when people refer to a solid, fine man as a buffoon. Way out of line.”
Says the armchair psychologist claiming Pham, Fowler, and Wong all have Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Seriously, man, quit being a hypocrite, it kind of pisses me off.
Forsch31 touched on this but I agree. We may never know the true story but I do not believe MM was fired mid season because of team performance. That I believe would have waited till year end. I believe it was either insubordination on Matheney’s part by refusing either to fire Mabry, or possibly something else or it was the leaks of the locker room situation that were embarrassing BDW. That is my take.
From Jen Langosch:
Seeking to address their shortcomings, the Cardinals overhauled their roster in the offseason with the stated goal of earning a postseason spot. To this point, however, the on-field play has been ragged and inconsistent. Furthermore, a focus to clean up the fundamentals had not produced the desired results. For a second straight season, the Cards have been one of the Majors’ worst in the field and on the bases.
Offensively, they ranked in the bottom half of the NL in runs scored (407) and strained to piece together rallies when not hitting home runs. Several hitters — most notably Dexter Fowler, Kolten Wong, Tommy Pham and Marcell Ozuna — have not performed near expectations.
These four are flat-out responsible for Matheny’s firing… I hope that they are all gone ASAP. They are the virus that ruined season ’18.
I don’t know if I like the Cardinals anymore… they have too many players that I’m getting to dislike immensely.I’m going to have to disagree with some of you. Agreed that the Cards ownership and FO needed to show the fans that they too weren’t happy with the performance of the team. The financial contractual commitment was much less to Mike Matheny than to Dexter Fowler, Kolten Wong, etc.
Can’t fire those players, and nobody else wants them.
So the underperformance and “me first” attitude among some of the players got their manager fired. Way to go, guys.You say I don’t get it, BW? I’m afraid I do. I know what was going on and it wasn’t pretty. Mike didn’t throw some of his players under the bus publically, but behind the scenes he held them accountable for the Cardinal Way (yes, it’s still an appropriate term). It means you understand the traditions of the organization, the 11 World Series Championships, the Hall of Fame players and managers who have worn the uniform, and you play all out everyday with everything you have in a professional manner. To do otherwise is to dishonor the uniform as well as to slap the paying fans in the face. There were certain players who didn’t buy into this, and they were called out for it because they are poor examples to the youngsters coming up from the minors. Did it create dissension? You bet it did. MM was livid.
Someone said that giving Mike an extension after the 2016 season was questionable. Really? For a manager that had taken the Cardinals to the playoffs 4 out of 5 years and to the World Series? And in the only season he didn’t make the playoffs he made it to the last day of the season before not making it, even though he had lost his main middle of the order bat for 6 weeks down the stretch.
I know some don’t want to put credence in a manager’s won-loss record, but since it got him fired this season, let’s look at the full body of work. He had a better winning percentage than Tony Larussa. He had a better winning percentage than Whitey Herzog. He had a better winning percentage than Joe Torre. He had a better winning percentage than Red.
If you want to talk about “regression”. All you have to do is to look at the team today vs. the team Tony had in 2011. Tony had superb leadership among the veterans. Albert Pujols. Chris Carpenter. Matt Holliday. Lance Berkman. Ryan Theriot. Kyle Lohse. All guys who knew what the Cardinal Way meant, and demanded excellence from their teammates.
So I don’t get it, BW, and never will? I think I do. I agree that a change in leadership was needed. But the change of leadership needed was (and still is) between the lines, not in the dugout.
Another poster, knowing that I have 4 box seats to the game today (taking grandkids) said that I’ll see a win today now because MM won’t be in the dugout. That one statement says it all about that poster’s underlying bias.
No joy in MM’s firing, but it was the right thing to do. FO is finally making moves to right this ship. They made a dignified statement last night with the announcement, and I wish him well, as I’m sure we all do on this board.
Mabry and Meuler gone too, also good moves.
This should send a message to several players that they are under scrutiny as well. None of us knows what is going on in the locker room, except for what we read in 2nd hand accounts, but we can certainly see what’s happening on the field. Fowler, Ozuna, Pham, Wong, and half the bullpen — heads up!
You fans that are happy that MM is gone are still stuck with the same crappy lineup of bs players…. the same dopey owner and the same Mozeliak that brought in these bs players using dopey’s money.
This organization has sunken into a new low which has been caused by the type of players that believe that they are #1 and f..k everyone else. Those trying to do their best to right this sunken ship are overlooked because the trouble-makers get the headlines, NFL-style. DeWitt caved and pandered to them.
DeWitt and Mozeliak can kiss my rear…. they took my team away from me and left me a pile of garbage.
(Profanity removed by moderator.)
I lost all faith in our FO when we chose ozuna over yelich…at the time i figured well these are the pros, and they know something i dont. In reality they simply bot high on a player who spent his entire career being protected by mike stanton, instead of a natural ball player with a high floor.
I dont believe that this “non story” about hicks/norris was a mistake..i still dont get the point of the story, was it supposed to have racial undertones? The media is mostly terrible(not you brian) but this one i simply dont get..unless…
it was purposeful… i wonder if these stories were allowed to be played up by our FO in order to have an excuse for this firing, and to possibly be sellers..
uless munoz can show to be a capable 4th of, he belongs in the al…marp needs to be gone in offseason as well along with j mart…we really have nothing to “tear down” lol
Cranny, interesting take on the “Cardinal Way” of conducting yourself, and it’s relevance in Matheny’s problems with some players. It is hard for us to know how much that impacted the final verdict, but obviously the results on the field were not there.
From what I have read about Pham, he really works hard at his game and is a professional. His feelings of being continually mistreated by the organization may have worn him down some, and obviously he carries a lot of anger towards the club’s management.
I guess bottom line, I am not sure how to get a grip on exactly where the rift is when some players were not acting in the “Cardinal Way”. Do they constantly berate the organization’s history and make fun of the old-timers when they come around? Do they want special privileges? What are some specifics? Because on the field, it seems like they put in the efforts. The results have not been there, and that is discouraging and probably dims the enthusiasm some. It’s hard to be all rah-rah when you are not going well. But from what I see, albeit on TV, the “non-Cardinal-Way” guys hustle down the line, dive to make plays, and all that. They just are not hitting very well.
I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if Mo is largely responsible for cultivating the under performing offense angle and channeling the blame toward Mabry. It must be appreciated that he would not want the roster to be the focus of attention.
It should also be remembered that when MM was hired it was generally accepted that he was seen by the front office as the ultimate company man who would toe the company line. Obviously, any insubordination over Mabry or anything else would mean there would have to be some other reason for him to remain the manager.
“Hope” is not going to change this team’s fortunes. What’s needed are players who will quit kicking the ball all over the field and willing to apply a more situational / team mindset to their hitting approaches. More importantly, all the pieces need to be complementary and not so disjointed. Matheny was not the right guy to lead the team imo, but the longer the architect of this mess is allowed to steer off course, the tougher the rebuild is going to be.
Will be interesting to see if Shildt is give the remainder of the season to prove his mettle. Will they name a permanent manager before the end of the season or wait until the winter?
I guess Girardi, Farrell, Shildt, and Clapp will all be on the radar.
“Hope’ is all we can have right now. As I said earlier this morning the remodel has just begun. Players without doubt have to be of better quality. No one is debating that at all.
I have to admit that I was a Matheny supporter early on. I was never as uptight about the lineups and in game moves as some. But I had reached the conclusion that he had to turn it around this year or a change needed to be made. I just didn’t expect it to happen this early in the season. I hope this is only the beginning of major changes. This team is loaded with redundancy. Too many corner infield and outfield players. Way too many instances of poor execution and sloppy play. Far too much uneven play; hot one day and inept the next. Those last things are the responsibility of the manager on the field. Too many young players at Memphis who are blocked by players who are seriously underachieving.
I suspect that Shildt is an interim manager period. I don’t think the Cardinal dare not to bring in a big name from the outside. But Shildt is a solid baseball man and I have been very impressed by interviews with him. He is ideal to handle the team on an interim basis while a search for a permanent manager goes on. I do not expect it to take long. They have the advantage of little or no competition for who they want unless the target is currently a manager with another team. I’m not a big fan of some of the names being mentioned, particularly Baker. But I will support the new manager at least until there are good reasons not to.
The sad thing is that the internet, which can be a great thing, is that it has given a platform to those who feed their self importance by trashing others. Most often with the advantage of 20/20 hindsight or preconcieved points of view. Those people will ultimately trash our new manager as well.
I am glad to see Mabry go. If he is responsible for our approach at the plate he needs to go. The take the first pitch, often a batting practice fastball down the middle, and wild swings at pitches out of the zone have made far too many ordinary pitchers enjoy some Cy Young type moments. Seems that our hitters are often behind 0-2, particularly Carpenter and Ozuna. Carp for taking fat pitches and Ozuna for wild swings at bad ones. It will be interesting to see how they replace him. It almost has to be an interim move because a new manager will want his own coaches. Possibly Budaska from Memphis.
My hope is that a move at this time of the season is an indicator of major changes. That would be a departure from the Cardinals normal practices. But this team is not going to get better as currently constituded. They have to take some risks with young players and have to spend some money. Top priority would seem to clean up the defense and clear out some of the bad performers, particulorly those vets who are not going to get better. To do that we probably have to eat some bad salaries. While Matheny was pretty consistent with his late inning bullpen moves I feel that he was very inconsistent in the use of the remainder of the bullpen. That could have impared the progress of some of our young guys with good arms like Tui, Brebbia and Mayers. They need a clear understanding of their role on the team.
Speaking of roles that appears to be a major failing of Matheny or Mo or both. LaRussa was one of the best in understanding the roles that had to be filled to have a winning team. He often spent the early part of the season in getting effective players in those roles and usually had a better last half of the season when succesful in doing so. One of the ultimate results of bad performance in this area is playing a lot of players out of position and having unproductive batting orders.
Let’s hope this is the dawn of a productive new era in Cardinal baseball.
The lunatics in the asylum were allow to win. What a shame.
Some have said here something to the effect that the players will perform better now that MM is gone. That is like saying that they were dogging it up until now. Those are exactly the guys that need to go. The pretenders.
The Cardinal Way is Matt Holliday being the first to arrive every day and the last to leave. Taking extra time in the weight room and in the batting cages.
The Cardinal Way is not –
1.) A second baseman who tries to hit a home run every time, even though he’s been told time after time to go with the pitch. That same second baseman who has speed and has 3 stolen bases in 86 games this year.
2.) A right fielder who lops after the ball in the corner and in the gap. Who drops an easy fly ball because of his nonchalance. And who has a mind boggling slash line of .174/.270/.285/.555 this year? Can any poster remember a player who dropped off the table so far?
3.) A player who trashed a storied organization in a national magazine because HE as an individual didn’t think HE was being treated fairly after one season of major league productivity.
Ironic, I suppose, that back in April the Reds were in St. Louis (or on their way to. St. Louis) when their manager was fired. And now about three months later the Reds are back in St. Louis and the Cardinal manager is fired.
I wonder who gets fired the next time the Reds come to St. Louis???
r/Rat
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