Matheny as manager – fired 7/14

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  • #60452
    PugsleyAddams
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Change can be good. Even though we are fielding the same cast of characters, I already feel better about our squad. I think to the point where I just may no longer be a stranger to our heralded game threads…..lucky you.

    #60461
    forsch31
    Participant

    Free

    Then Matheny’s firing will definitely benefit us. It would be great to have you back on the game threads.

    Just remember, even though I may not be on the thread during the game, I enjoy reading a PBP later. I don’t get to watch the games. No FSMW and I am in the blackout zone.

    #60463
    thejager
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I give the FO credit, they made the decision and did it. I didnt think they’d do it until the end of the year, I thought they’d give the guy a shot for the year.

    I didnt like the way the team was playing, and i do think the manager has some say in that, but at the end of the day the players arent playing well. If our players are THAT dependent on a manger making them feel good or doing whatever they want, then we dont have the right players. A manager should make you play a bit better, or a bit more confidently, but if you are hitting .170, that isnt on the manager or hitting coach, that is on you.

    they needed a scapegoat, they identified one and made their decision.

    Matheny may not be the best manager, but he is far from bad, his winning percentage proves it and his success getting to the postseason proves it too. yes, the last two years have been tough. yes, we should expect better, but putting that all on Matheny is pretty ridiculous, and i am allowed to think and believe that is ridiculous, and you dont get to change my mind on that.

    The last two years werent all that bad even, just the expectations were higher than what we got. We were in it on the last day two years ago despite having a gutted to injury team. and last year we were in it to the last week (the division) and that team had so many poor performers and injuries we were fielding a 95% AAA squad for big chunks of the year. Yet we were right there despite all the angst from the fans and poor play.

    I think the last 2+ years of upheaval is largely due to the upheaval in the FO in making some questionable decisions for players. MM tried to adjust but you can only do so much with the the hand you are dealt.

    Once Taveras passed away it all started to crumble, the FO started REACTING to the situations in front of them instead of creating their own path. Taveras was a big part of the future of the Cardinals organization and planning, and when that tragically went away so did the long term plan. Heyward, Price, Stanton, LEake, even Ozuna all these moves that didnt work out were all REACTING to the lack of knowing what to do with losing such an integral part of the long term plans of the organization. And they still havent figured it out yet. Ozuna is a band aid fix, they need a cornerstone player, they hoped it woudl be cheap and brought up through the system, but that went away. They tried to cram Carp into that role, give money to Wong to become it, hope for Grichuk to be a Ferrari and push Piscotty to be too important too fast, reach and hope and grasp at straws like Pham and JMart, even sign DeJong really early more to hope to not lose him rather than making a thoughtful decision.

    Holliday was supposed to fade into Taveras, with Carp and Yadi helping, and PIscotty and Wong maturing to help as well. but without the lynchpin of Taveras it all went south. and still is. Until the FO bellies up to the table and throws all their talent and money to get the thing they really dont have they will continue to flounder until that piece is found.

    Identify it, and go get it, no matter the cost.

    We all love our fancy farm system, we love talking prospects and hopes and futures. But our farm wasnt all that great when we were competing every year. the BRyan Anderson, and Hawksworths and Daryl Jones’ were the talks of the town. Our teams were built with identifying key youngsters to be big building blocks, and then finding FAs that fit and added middling players to round out the team.

    Our FO fell in love with the cost saving of the beautiful farm system, the cheap starting pitchers that are like apples on a tree, not forcing us to pay for the Yu Darvish’s of the world. And all the while we pick late in the rounds and our position player ceiling players end up being really low, and our veterans age and leave, we suffer some tragedy and a few poor band aids. And we are where we are.

    We have no cornerstone for the future of the lineup, we have some nice vets, and some flailing players to go with some typical young talent. We have wonderful starting rotation depth, good looking prospects for the pen and depth. Even good bench talent and future catching replacements.

    Look at the Reds, blessed from being so bad they get awesome young hitting talent, BUT they have a crappy rotation. But wonderful hitters young and old. They can outpunch teams, but even then needed a little rotation stability. They were so weak early no great hitters could help. But then they lose Bailey and bring back an middling Desclafani and dice roll shell of his former self Harvey and all of the sudden they start beating anyone. They didnt go out and get Hamels and Archer…they got middling starters to pair with their hitters and it is working.

    Im not saying we need to throw away the wonderful farm and young pitchers, but it sure seems to me that we do just fine finding good cheap SPs on the market. And we cant seem to find the hitters. Use the young talent to get the young cornerstone hitter, pair that with a big cornerstone hitter FA find. Then fill the holes from the farm and MLB squad with the parts left and some lower level FA signings.

    Identify 3 SPs to invest in, trade the others and more for a big time talent and then pat yourself on the back for finding the Mikolas’, Wellemeyer’s, Suppan’s, Lohse’s of the FA world to make the rotation work…. but you need the Pujols and Holliday to make the rest work, you can fake it with BErkman and BEltran short term but you need the cornerstones.

    i am babbling.

    I liked Matheny i respected what he did with the poor play he got the last two years. That’s what i want out of manager on the field. But if he got that whiel causing damage internally, well then we can hopefully find someone else to succeed without failing somewhere else.

    Shildt seems a good filler, but it seems we are going to end up with Clapp or Girardi.

    #60467
    NJ315
    Participant

    I must have missed the memo where Matheny was blamed for all. I would not dream of trying to change yours or anybody else’s mind. Matheny was not a good manager and extend me the same courtesy and don’t try to change my mind. He was far from deserving all the blame but his percentage of it was significant.

    #60477
    bicyclemike
    Moderator

    Paid - Annual

    From all I have heard about Mike Matheny, he is a class act. But the bottom line is that the Cardinals have set a high standard under the DeWitt ownership, and being a medicore ball club is not acceptable.

    Danny Mac made a good point on yesterday’s television broadcast, saying you have to win at home. The Cardinals have been a .500 club at home over the last 2 1/2 seasons. Combine that with the widely accepted opinion that Matheny was not a good tactical manager, and it was an easy decision.

    A change had to occur, and usually the manager is the fall guy.

    #60478
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Forsch, I feel for you. In today’s world, continuing the blackouts is a bad long-term practice for MLB, which should be trying to attract fans, not exclude them.

    Pugs, welcome back! You provide a prime example of my point about the managerial change rekindling hope.

    #60488
    forsch31
    Participant

    Free

    What’s even worse is that I can’t get Mediacom to even consider adding FSMW to their channel offerings here. I really have no desire to go to a dish due to the need for the internet service Mediacom provides.

    #60489
    UConn Card
    Moderator

    Paid - Annual

    I’ve waited to give my 2 cents re MM’s firing until I could post on my computer i/o my tablet…my little tablet with the little keys.

    Anyway, I really hate to see anyone lose their jobs. But in this case it needed to happen. I haven’t seen anyone dumping the Cardinals’ issues entirely in MM’s lap but there’s an old sports adage about underperforming teams something to the effect that you can’t fire the entire team so the manager needs to go.

    That doesn’t mean that I think Matheny was a scapegoat, not even close. Yes, he’s had to deal with injuries (as does every manager) and yes, many of his players don’t produce the way either a Pujols or Holliday in their prime did (not many do). But, holy snickers, look what Stubby Clapp has done at Memphis. That guy has had a whirling revolving door at Memphis since his managerial tenure began as St Louis desperately looked for Big Club help and he manages his pieces and injuries to where the Redbirds are a dominant force in the Pacific Coast League.

    One of the oft-repeated compliments about Herzog’s in-the-clubhouse management was that he knew which player responded best to a pat on the tush (so-to-speak) and which one responded best to a kick in the same region. (After all, Andujar might well have been certifiable and how many pitchers leave a clubhouse during the play-offs to fly to their hometown so they can clean the clock of their sister’s ex-boyfriend who was harassing her and then flies back to pitch…looking at you Danny Cox.) That’s a huge aspect of player management. It really came across to we fans as if Matheny had a one-size-fits-all style within the clubhouse and that doesn’t work.

    As far as next year’s manager goes, I think much depends on how this season plays out. Shildt’s no filler. He’s a very well-respected man with prior managerial success. Can he do it at the Major League level?

    We’ll see.

    #60518
    bccran
    Participant

    Mike Matheny’s interview was posted yesterday. All class. I would like to pay tribute to Mike’s playing career as a Cardinal (3 Gold Gloves in 5 years) and yes, to his managerial career. He took us to the playoffs 4 straight years out of the 6 full years he was here, and to the 2013 World Series.
    I’m sure the person who posted his interview and many others would like to share in this tribute.

    #60519
    NJ315
    Participant

    No thanks. He was an average manager at best. It seems you will be missing enough for all of us.

    #60520
    thejager
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I dont understand the remarks about everyone not putting this all on MM, while the MOz and Girsch haters club is outspoken as always, i dont really see them chiming in right now to defend MM from the “REAL” problem of the FO…

    Almost every article and tweet and post i see has been blaming this all on MM and not the players. That MM was some kind of cancer in the clubhouse and that a new manager is the only thing that can save this team.

    Does MM not get any credit for turning the teams of last yer and the year before into teams with a chance
    to the end?

    I think it needed to happen, but i dont think where we are at has much to do with MM. I see underperforming players with a lot of injuries to key players, and a team lacking any kind of cornerstone player to lean on when things go poor.

    MM made some bad decisions in games, every manager does, but at the end of the day his coaching provided us with a WS appearance 4 playoff appearances and a competitive team the other 2.5 years. Was he the greatest coach ever? absolutely not, but he also doesn’t wing the bats or throw the pitches.

    The sky is falling after every loss and subsequent crickets chirping when they do win or MM does do something good only makes it all the more clear that the media and fans are so entitled that the idea that the Cards despite injury and underperforming stars and players should still be dominating and that a manger with a good winning percentage, multiple playoff appearances and never had a losing season shoudl be thrown away as if he is the embodiment of trash.

    It’s one thing to have high expectations, but it is another to blame not meeting those expectations on a guy who has had to make due with injury scares, major underperforming, and lack of injection of fixes because of that.

    With what performances we got the last 2.5 years from players and the subsequent injuries across the board to key players we should be grateful the team didnt perform even worse.

    He is being treated like a skapegoat, maybe he needs to be, but it doesnt mean he deserves it.

    #60524
    Onyxgem
    Participant

    Free

    MM did deserve to be fired maybe not right now but by end of year he needed to be gone, he isn’t and never was a good manager AT ALL!

    #60527
    bccran
    Participant

    Well thought out and well put, TJ.
    Let’s see if others take the high road.

    #60542
    bicyclemike
    Moderator

    Paid - Annual

    Matheny never had a losing record, and lead the Cardinals to the post season in his first four years as manager. He certainly had success, but professional sports at the top level thrives on the short-term; the old “What have you done for us lately?”.

    For Mike, “lately” has been rough and management felt the change needed to be made. From my unofficial tabulation, about 85% if the Cardinals’ fan base is in agreement. The Cardinals in the DeWitt regime have set the bar high. A .500 record is unacceptable.

    Thanks Mike Matheny for a good run. Now let’s move on with the “other” Mike, and see if we can make a run over these last 2 1/2 months.

    #60543
    PugsleyAddams
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Your unadulterated vote of confidence will have me riding a mile high in our PBP saddle, Brian & Forschster. One rousing game thread and Cranny may just forget all about our dearly departed skipper. Concerning MM…… I’m wondering what his next career move will be. He’s too young to retire. Will another team hire him as their manager this coming off season? Does he accept a less distinguished role if no managerial offers materialize? You watch, if nothing palatable comes his way, Theo will coax him into working with the cubbies in some capacity.

    #60549
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Per his final contract extension, Matheny will be paid by the Cardinals for 2 1/2 more years. I do not know its terms, but my guess is that if he works elsewhere during that period, the amount St. Louis owes him would be reduced accordingly. At least, if I was them, that is how I would have written it, but then again, extending him through 2020 would not have been my choice, either. But, that is ownership’s commitment and its impact on the team’s financials (and therefore their ability to spend elsewhere) is likely minimal.

    I don’t know specifically about the fired coaches, but generally coaches are on one-year deals or two at the most in rare cases.

    #60550
    bccran
    Participant

    Mike – Thanks for your tribute, along with TJ’s. Some people, including some baseball journalist’s, can’t seem to bring themselves to thank MM for some of the good things he did. From 2012-2015 the Cardinals set the Cardinal record for the most playmoff seasons in a row. MM led the team 80% of that time. MM never had a losing season. LaRussa was 83-89 in 1997. 75-86 in 1999.
    78-84 in 2007. He wasn’t “relieved of his duties”. Whitey was 79-83 in 1983. He was 79-82 in 1986.
    He was 76-86 in 1988. He was 33-47 in 1990, when he threw in the towel and walked away in the middle of the season.

    Here again are some winning percentages for comparison –

    Cox – .556
    MM – .555
    Girardi – .554
    Martin – .553
    Grimm – .547
    Anderson – .545
    Durocher – .540
    Maddon – .540
    Murtaugh – .540
    Torre – .538
    La Russa – .536
    Baker – .532
    Herzog – .532
    Lasorda – .526
    Schoendiest – .522
    Berra – .522
    Williams – .520
    Stankey – .518
    McKeon – .515
    Schowalter – .510
    Stengel – .508
    Mauch – .483
    Baylor – .476
    Boyer – .466
    Hornsby – .463

    BW (and others) – don’t you think it’s only fair and appropriate to pay at least some tribute to this Cardinal player and manager, and wish him well, as we now move on to the next chapter in Cardinal history?

    #60553
    NJ315
    Participant

    Tributes are for people who died or achieve something above the ordinary. Matheny is neither. He is just an average manager that was fired. I can’t phantom why that deserves a tribute.

    #60559
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    bccran, you are welcome to continue your period of mourning as long as you feel it necessary. I have moved on, however. I really wish you would stop advising me what to post and what not to post. It will not achieve your desired result. Thank you.

    #60560
    UConn Card
    Moderator

    Paid - Annual

    Yep. No one died. St Louis made a manager change. It happens. Moving on here too.

    #60565
    Onyxgem
    Participant

    Free

    bccran telling people what they should post is silly at best so knock it off…

    As for MM coaching ability, IMHO he kept us from winning it all several times with his managing ability especially the first 2-3 years when he was managing a well oiled machine!

    #60567
    Bw52
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Some people will bash MM no matter what.He was a class act.His managing was inconsistent and he did have some good seasons.I wish him well in his future actions.Now its time to see what happens next.

    #60568
    bccran
    Participant

    I’m moving on too. Actually excited about Mike Shildt because he came up through the system and is steeped in the Cardinal Way. But I will continue to wonder for awhile why people can’t be kind, BW, and wish MM well. If the shoe was on the other foot, you know he would be wising you and us well.
    The interview that you posted proved that and displayed the type of class that the man has. I guess we’re all different, and that’s just the way it is. Case closed.

    #60569
    bccran
    Participant

    I’m moving on too. Actually excited about Mike Shildt because he came up through the system and is steeped in the Cardinal Way. But I will continue to wonder for awhile why people can’t be kind, BW, and wish MM well. If the shoe was on the other foot, you know he would be wising you and us well.
    The interview that you posted proved that and displayed the type of class that the man has. I guess we’re all different, and that’s just the way it is. Case closed.

    #60572
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Matheny was an average to above average manager. He certainly wasn’t our only problem but essentially he lived off of TLR’s coattails for a few years but then the clubhouse dynamic and structure collapsed around him.

    Also, like I’ve said many times, the power structure of the NL Central changed the day Epstein landed in Chicago. We did not adapt our business model one iota. It cost Matheny his job and it will eventually cost Mo and Girsch their jobs too if we don’t change our ways.

    Building from within will always be the focal point of the Cardinal organization but we had better learn to become more aggressive when opportunities present themselves.

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