Matheny as manager – fired 7/14

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  • #29692
    Avatar14NyquisT
    Participant

    The recent question of Matheny’s effectiveness is a good test to see what kind of MANager he really is. I think he survives with some help from the higher-ups.
    ps. I have NEVER commented on any of Matheny’s decisions. I feel that he is in the dugout… most of us are in recliners. Get my point?

    #29696
    AvatarNJ315
    Participant

    Then that applies to all managers. So nobody knows can question their decisions outside of the organization.

    #29698
    Avatargscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Not sure who you are referring to NJ315 but I don’t recall defending Matheny’s W-L record. I have consistently said that he has proven he could win when he was given a quality roster, however, this year he was not given a quality roster.

    #29699
    Avatargscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Bccran, I totally disagree with your premise that the roster is fine and the only problem is under performance.

    Why do we have so many outfielders?
    Why do we have so many 2B?
    Why do we not have a cleanup hitter?

    This is roster is cluttered and lacks a feared hitter. That was stated on this board in January and is still true today. The FO failed.

    #29700
    AvatarNJ315
    Participant

    That’s because it wasn’t you. Bccran asserted time after time at the prior forum that the indisputable fact of Matheny being a very good manager was his win and loss record percentage anything else was an opinion. But now is the players not Matheny responsible for the losing record so far, he is still a good manager.

    #29702
    Avatarbccran
    Participant

    It lacks a feared hitter because no one has elevated their performance to be that feared hitter.
    Grichuk and/or Piscotty were groomed to be that feared hitter. They haven’t performed up to it.
    DeJong and Bader have been given a chance. The jury is still out on on all 4 of the above. Kelly is slowly being given a shot. O’Neill and Garcia are in the wings. Strength is 90% built from within. Can they find another Berkman or Beltran type in the off season as insurance? We’ll see.

    #29705
    Euro DandyEuro Dandy
    Participant

    Free

    You’re in bad shape when the success of the team depends on a lot of “hope” that is not very well justified. No wonder so many are disappointed in our organizational brain trust. Yes, they failed.

    #29718
    Avatargscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    It lacks a feared hitter because no one has elevated their performance to be that feared hitter.
    Grichuk and/or Piscotty were groomed to be that feared hitter. They haven’t performed up to it.

    We will just have to agree to disagree. Depending on Grichuk or Piscotty to be the feared hitter was extreme wishful thinking. Most reasonable people could have concluded before the season began that these guys are complimentary pieces.

    #29727
    Avatarbccran
    Participant

    The Cardinals made a decision some time ago that they would put heavy emphasis on pitching. It’s paid off. They also have draft a few position players in the first 3 rounds. Not many, really.

    Cox In 2010.

    Wong, Tilson, and McElroy in 2011.

    Ramsey, Piscotty, Wisdom, Bean, and Kelly in 2012.

    Mercado in 2013.

    None in 2014.

    Plummer, Denton, and Bader in 2015.

    Perez and Carlson in 2016.

    Hurst in 2017.

    My opinion re the problem, for what it’s worth? The loss of OT and the 2013 and 2014 drafts.

    I

    #29731
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    bccran, what about the apparent inconsistency of citing team won-loss record in support of the manager in the past, but now disavowing any connection when the W-L record has gone south?

    #29732
    Avatarbccran
    Participant

    Some people make a game out of Monday Morning Quarterbacking the manager’s and general manager’s moves. I just enjoy watching the
    games. Simply approach, but different strokes for different folks.

    #29733
    Avatarbccran
    Participant

    Some people make a game out of Monday Morning Quarterbacking the manager’s and general manager’s moves. I just enjoy watching the
    games. Simply approach, but different strokes for different folks.

    #29734
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Your non-answer is all the answer I need, though I did not ask the initial question.

    #29739
    Avatarbccran
    Participant

    C – Yadi is Yadi
    3B – Peralta failed
    SS – Diaz failed
    2B – Wong was hurt
    1B – Carp’s BA way down
    LF – Grichuk failed
    CF – Fowler was hurt
    RF – Piscotty underperformed

    It’s the players, folks.

    #29751
    AvatarNJ315
    Participant

    If it is the players then is always the players, folks.

    #29754
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Quit being so objective.

    #29755
    AvatarBrianpnoonan
    Participant

    Free

    Lol brian

    Like I said above — even if he isnt a part of the problem (don’t buy it) he has definitely not been part of the solution — which is unacceptable.

    #29757
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    In some interesting timing, national writer Joe Sheehan, a friend of mine (under full disclosure), just tweeted this about the manager, in reference to Wacha’s infamous return in the post-season against the Giants. But, hey, it was Wacha’s fault, right?

    #29776
    Avatarbccran
    Participant

    How in the world did the Cardinals win tonight with such an awful manager. It simply doesn’t make sense.

    #29777
    AvatarAndrew Crause
    Participant

    It took a picture throwing a 2 hitter. Id have to say that I was hating the move pinch hitting for Lynn but it worked out for us. With hit, walk, good play by Wong and then passed ball.

    #29778
    Avatarbccran
    Participant

    Starting pitcher does a good job. Oh, Lyons, and Rosenthal do the jobs they’re paid to do – one inning each of holding the opposition. And the 3rd place hitter hits a 2 run homer. We win the game. Well, gee, what do you know about that. The players did their job tonight.

    #29780
    AvatarNJ315
    Participant

    I thought it was the players. They won it.

    #29783
    Avatarbccran
    Participant

    NJ – I think way too much emphasis is placed on the manager whether they win or lose. Hall of Fame manager Tony LaRussa was bashed constantly on baseball forums for decisions he made. The same with Matheny. Players can be criticized on here, but the nastiness goes to a whole new level when talking about BDW, Mo, and MM. Mean adjectives are used that are abasing. I don’t pretend to have knowledge of matchups stats, unpublicized nicks and injuries, frames of mind, fatigue, etc. Or trades that can or can’t be made based upon what the other team wants. Or free agents who prefer certain cities over others. A manager and GM have this information. I don’t. Other posters don’t. Therefore, my main constant is to tend to be less judgmental than some because I recognise that I don’t have all the facts to input into the equation. If I have any constant, as another poster (who piled on) referred to, it’s that. I doubt that any poster on here has the breadth or depth of baseball experience that our GM and manager have. And yet they think they do, and constantly try to portray it.

    #29807
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    It is unfortunate that you consider joining a discussion in a public forum “piling on”. It would not have happened had you answered the original question, which you still have not.

    Here is my conclusion from your remarks.

    Do not question authority. Give the manager and front office the benefit when the numbers back them and disavow the numbers when it does not support them.

    Of course, you are entitled to your view, just as it is for others to disagree.

    #29808
    Avatar1964cards
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I would agree with Bccran that a manager is always second guessed, even great managers. However, I believe the current situation is due to a combination of how the team is being led and how the roster has been constructed.

    TLR had a very structured approach to running a team. I always felt that every player knew their role and what was expected if them. I do not get that same feeling that roles and expectations are as clear under the current leadership. To be fair, part is due to player performance and part due to injury. However, I still wonder if there is the same consistency of approach and emphasis on execution.

    The other contributor is the consist of the roster. The rotation has been better than expected and the bull pen worse. However, the line up and defense were not adequately addressed in the off season. The team is clearly missing a big bat in the middle of the line up and there are way too many strike outs for my liking. So, in defense of the manager, you have to play the “cards” you are dealt.

    This will be a big offseason for the organization no matter what happens the rest of this season. They will need to make a number of personnel decisions as well as a determination if Mike is the guy to move forward with.

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