July 17, 2018 at 10:23 am #60574
Agreed, gscott. And they should probably think twice about signing players like Leake, Fowler, and Cecil to long term contracts without doing more thorough diligence.
I think it was very telling that it was Mo who went to Las Vegas to have dinner with Fowler and discuss with him moving to RF. It was rumored that Tony ruled the roost when he was manager and Mo wanted someone he could control when he hired the next manager. I only hope that Mo leaves the managing up to the manager now and not manage with him, through him, and around him.July 17, 2018 at 10:40 am #60585stlcard25ParticipantPaid - Annual
Bc, as man I have nothing but respect for Mike Matheny. He and I probably share a large amount of the same values and beliefs, and it’s easy to see that he has integrity and tries to live by what he believes.
As a manager, he has led the team through some pretty enjoyable times. He has also led through the tough times. His leadership through the Oscar Taveras nightmare was admirable and caused me to appreciate him even more. While I don’t think he was a top flight manager overall, he isn’t the reason solely that he got fired.
It was time to move in a new direction, but I absolutely hope he does well in whatever he undertakes going forward.
As for the Mo/manager dynamic, I wonder how much of it has been Mo having to step in at times to force a change (like trading Allen Craig, for one example) because Mike was so loyal to his guys. Maybe some of it is a control issue for Mo. Either way, I suspect he’s got a mandate, stated or silent, and he understands that he’ll be joining MM as unemployed unless the team turns around in the next year and a half.July 17, 2018 at 10:46 am #60589
Excellent thoughts, 25. Thank you.July 17, 2018 at 11:03 am #60596
I must have missed the memo where Matheny was blamed for all. I would not dream of trying to change yours or anybody else’s mind. Matheny was not a good manager and extend me the same courtesy and don’t try to change my mind. He was far from deserving all the blame but his percentage of it was significant.
Not to be condescending, but why even post about it then? I wish I could be so resolute in my convictions.July 17, 2018 at 11:14 am #60597
No words just now words. Oh yes one…unbelievableJuly 17, 2018 at 11:20 am #60599
You are condescending Pads you mostly are in your posts. So you are not trying to be you just are. But your point escapes me anyway. In this board I can say resolutely state I wouldn’t dare try to change anybody’s mind. Here with we are paying tribute to Matheny, that you can’t change so why try? I stated my opinion about Matheny. He wasn’t a good manager and paying a tribute to him is about the most asinine thing I ever read here. But there you have it the tributes are pouring in. I can’t wait to read yours.July 17, 2018 at 11:53 am #60605
NJ – If you can’t say anything nice or constructive, it’s probably better to just move on from this subject now. The rest of us have. Thanks very much.July 17, 2018 at 12:29 pm #60608
bccran are you in charge of deciding what is constructive and what isn’t? I will post my opinion whenever I feel like it. You don’t like it don’t read it. You want constructive…here it goes…your obsession with MM is kind of strange. Constructive criticism.July 17, 2018 at 12:34 pm #60609
Folks, there is WAY too much commenting on each other going on. Please stick to Matheny on this thread. All people should feel free to post positives, negatives or neutral views of the ex-manager – as long as they are within the posted forum guidelines. Disagree with others’ posts if you will, but leave the posters themselves out of it. We already have moderators here to step in if necessary. Thank you for your consideration of your fellow posters – as well as the many others who read only.July 17, 2018 at 1:40 pm #60621
Matheny was a good manager. If I say it one hundred times in one hundred threads, it’s obviously true and no one will convince me otherwise. It’s solid logic.
It’s asinine that people think a managerial change will fix anything. But hey, we have ‘hope’ now!
Sorry for being condescending apparently too.July 17, 2018 at 1:54 pm #60629
I don’t think the managerial change will fix all. But it will fix the fact that he wasn’t a good manager. There is much more to be done. But you have to start somewhere and that was a good first step.July 17, 2018 at 1:56 pm #60631
Why don’t you people understand?
The very next two posts after my warning were two posters sniping at each other, which is exactly what I asked be stopped. Everyone seems to want to get in the last word.
I deleted both and will keep deleting them until I get to the point I start issuing time outs.July 17, 2018 at 2:03 pm #60635
I don’t think the managerial change will fix all. But it will fix the fact that he wasn’t a good manager. There is much more to be done. But you have to start somewhere and that was a good first step.
I don’t agree about Matheny of course, but if you’re right, then that’s a good point. I hope that it is a step in the right direction.
This reminds me of when Kentucky (basketball) fired Tubby Smith. I was furious that they did it, but it was a step in the right direction with Calipari coming along after…eventually.
I think a bigger issue with this season’s play and our fans’ frustration has been Stanton spurning us for the Yankees and Ozuna playing absolutely awful thus far.July 17, 2018 at 2:52 pm #60652
There are some huge questions to try to answer. The main ones being why Fowler, Wong, Pham (over the last several months), Holland, etc. all tanked this seeason.July 17, 2018 at 5:17 pm #60666OnyxgemParticipantFree
MM wasn’t that good of a manager, he Rode Tony’s coat tail for a few years and prob cost the cards 1-2WS appearances, once the clubhouse structure was gone MM lost control of the club house that is easy to see.July 17, 2018 at 5:46 pm #60674
I disagree, Onyx. He has one of the very top winning percentages of any manager in Major League Baseball over the past 6 1/2 seasons. That can’t be refuted. It can’t be denied. And it can’t be sneezed at. And like it or not, that’s considered one of the prime measurements of success for a manager.July 18, 2018 at 1:22 am #60691BlackHillsCardParticipantFree
And yet he is constantly ranked as one of the worst managers in MLB.
I bemoaned his hiring on Day 1 and fully believe he costs the Cardinals 1-2 championships.July 18, 2018 at 7:54 am #60705
Weird dynamic, BHC. Cards had just about the best W-L record in MLB over the past 6 1/2 years, but didn’t have the best 25 man roster (man for man), and the payroll wasn’t anywhere near the highest. Yet MM was “consistently ranked one of the worst managers in MLB”. Tough to understand that. Can anyone explain? Thanks.July 18, 2018 at 8:19 am #60713
Selective memory. For example, the crew at MLB Network explained why they ranked Matheny 30th of all MLB managers last June. (This link is from an earlier page of this same discussion thread as part of an identical dialogue between us last August.)
There are many examples over time of similar reviews. Reading them/listening to them will provide ample logic. You can certainly disagree with the cases presented, but feigning lack of awareness/understanding why Matheny was not considered by many to be a good manager? C’mon now.July 18, 2018 at 9:27 am #60722gscottarParticipantPaid - Annual
Matheny’s winning percentage can’t be denied but we also have to remember that he walked into a pretty good situation. Granted that Pujols left but he still inherited a team that just won the world series. Most first time managers inherit a train wreck of a team in which their winning percentage is going to be much different.July 18, 2018 at 10:30 am #60730thejagerParticipantPaid - Annual
even in that post though it says… ranked last by observers, fans and “probably” execs… i am not putting much credence in what some talking heads say to fill a segment
i agree the brand of baseball at times was hard to watch, but i dont blame that on the manager or at least not enough of it to overlook the overall W/L record
Maddon walked into a pretty sweet situation with the Cubs too, not all managers come into bad situations, and while agree some carry over might have helped early on…but not for all 4 of the years he made the playoffs nor the winning seasons he had the last 2.5 years…what changed was the players he had available to him…to me that is on the FO…as you move farther away from the carry over players it is on the FO to provide the players to sustain that positive direction….without it you are leaving your manager to make do with what he had…and MM did a very good job with that making winning and competitive clubs every year…
should he have been retained? probably not, a change and gut check needed to happen, but blaming him is unnecessary and unfair
if you evaluate other managers on their w/l then you have to do the same with MM…if you take away W/L for MM you have to do it for the others…it cant be pushed aside
players perform or they dont…they also get injured or worse or dont…a light uptick or down tick in performance can rightly be associated with the manager, i accept that….and there are games where key decisions by the manager cause losses…btu not all of them and that is why you look at the overall w/l
i look at the last 2.5 yrs and i see MAJOR performance problems, and major KEY parts of the FP’s team management being either injured for long or important times or with severe performance problems
YET..MM still got wins and kept the team in the playoff hunt until the end
Maybe a change was needed but blaming (and by blaming I mean thinking a change from him will automatically make the team better) is not only unfair to MM but also to every other manager that will follow him and who existed in the past
The FO gambled on a lot of things post Taveras’ death, and not many of them have worked out well, and MM is the one who is being blamed and
scapegoatedbecause of thatJuly 18, 2018 at 10:57 am #60734
He walked into a decent situation, but Pujols and Carpenter had left, and over the next several seasons the lineup was diluted. The first season he missed the playoffs, he made it to the last day of the season with a WC shot. Here was his lineup –
Holliday (went on the DL down the stretch with a HBP)
He was expected to compete with the Cubs who had the following lineup –
Fowler (the good Fowler)
Is that a fair fight? One to judge a manager on?July 18, 2018 at 11:05 am #60735OnyxgemParticipantFree
Cards teams got wins IN Spite of MM trying to keep losing games with contacts stupid decisions!July 18, 2018 at 11:22 am #60738
When I measure MM, I choose to go with winning percentage vs. peers, and the 25 man rosters he has had compared to competitors for the Division and Wild Card races. Just my way of looking at it – as fact based as I can get.July 18, 2018 at 11:32 am #60739stlcard25ParticipantPaid - Annual
Honest question on a hypothetical, bccran…
How would you view it if Shildt takes this same team to the playoffs with a second half surge?
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