Matheny as manager – fired 7/14

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  • #60741
    Avatarbccran
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    My hat will be off to him, 25. I’m rooting for him to do that. But comparing him to MM, there would be a lot of factors. If Fowler starts hitting, will it be because of Shildt or the new hitting coaches? Same for Pham and Wong. It those 3 start hitting, it would make a big difference. Keep in mind that the FO hires and fires the coaches. So if you didn’t like the offense under Mabry it should tell you where to lay the blame. A big difference also would be getting some relievers back from injuries and into the groove.

    #60744
    AvatarPadsFS
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    Brian Walton

    Selective memory. For example, the crew at MLB Network explained why they ranked Matheny 30th of all MLB managers last June. (This link is from an earlier page of this same discussion thread as part of an identical dialogue between us last August.)

    Does this selective memory go both ways?

    In a vote of his peers, Cardinals manager Mike Matheny ranked third in the National League. Bruce Bochy remains atop the group, and he is widely regarded as one of the finest managers in all of baseball, a likely Hall of Famer and one of the best at handling and deploying a bullpen. Joe Maddon, of the Cubs, has the mad scientist reputation and gets a lot of attention for his fun-loving clubhouses and also his counter-intuitive moves. Though he didn’t invent the role, he helped popularize the everyday utility player that has spread throughout the game and created and inspired more versatility within rosters.

    Over in the American League, Terry Francona was voted as the top manager.

    https://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/birdland/molina-matheny-rank-high-in-annual-survey-of-managers/article_ad77eceb-ad20-5046-8430-7864e9ce18d1.html

    #60745
    AvatarPadsFS
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    #60749
    Avatarbccran
    Participant

    Thank you, Pads. I didn’t appreciated the condescending “selective memory” comment from the poster. Especially since had had asked that we not direct those types of personal comments against other posters.

    #60751
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    While I don’t think Matheny was anywhere near the worst, it’s at least a little telling that he was ranked in the middle of the pack, basically, coming off three straight playoff appearances?

    The rankings that Brian referenced are interesting in that they’re listed as “Tactical and Strategic” rankings. That’s the area most have looked at Matheny as having need for improvement for years. I can’t say I disagree with that, necessarily.

    So I guess the rankings don’t seem that off to me.

    Top third clubhouse manager
    +
    Top third by record
    +
    Bottom third tactical manager

    Adds up to around 10-15th in the league, depending on how you weight that. With the cracks beginning to show in the clubhouse, a guy who hasn’t been elite in a few years with the record and never has been great with the tactical stuff just ran out of goodwill rope. That’s how I see this. Scapegoat? I don’t think so. Absolutely had to go right now? I don’t think that either. But I can’t fault the front office for going the way they did, when they did.

    #60755
    Avatarbccran
    Participant

    I have never said that a change wasn’t warranted. It has to be contemplated anytime an organization isn’t performing at peak over a period of time. But the hatred and criticism heaped on this man was way out of balance to his record and his character. Like saying that he was the worst manager in MLB. Or quoting others who felt he was #30 out of 30. Or posting his exit interview without saying that he was exiting with a degree of class. Way out of balance with some people.

    #60756
    Avatar14NyquisT
    Participant

    bc…. thanks for keeping it real.

    I also appreciate your words on the ’18 draft class.

    #60757
    Avatarso_cal_cards_fan
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    Free

    I’m struggling with the concept of “moving on”, as it is being used in this thread. Could some of the collaborators on this amazing testimony to Matheny explain its usage? To an uninitiated person such as myself, it seems only to be an ineffectual rehashing – almost a sardonic meta-criticism of Matheny’s own last few years. I’m sure there is a deeper meaning, which if I only knew, would benefit me and others.
    Montoya

    #60763
    Avatarbccran
    Participant

    sccf – it means moving on from taking blatant and latent pot shots at other posters and back to the discussion of Mike Matheny.

    #60765
    Avatarbccran
    Participant

    Thank you very much, 14.

    #60767
    Avatarso_cal_cards_fan
    Participant

    Free

    Ok thanks.

    #60769
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

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    My goodness. bccran asked why MM was said to be ranked low as a manager, a question for which he already knew the answer. I reminded him of one of the examples we discussed from this very thread, from 2017. It seemed silly to me to repeat the same pros and cons discussions we’ve had for 40 pages.

    Pads shared a couple of 2015 surveys and one from a year later. I don’t doubt the perception of Matheny’s performance in his job was better before and has declined over time. After all, a lot has changed in three years – starting with two plus one on track seasons to miss the playoffs. Not to mention the player conflicts last season and this.

    Every single person posting (and reading) here already made their mind up about Matheny long ago. No one is going to convince anyone else to change their view. So why keep getting upset about it? Agree to disagree and move ahead.

    #60771
    Avatarforsch31
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    I guess the things that I can’t understand are how all the following arguments that have been made fit together:

    1) When the Cardinals were winning, it proves that Matheny was a good manager.

    2) When the Cardinals were winning at a much lower percentage, it was because the players did not perform.

    3) When compared to other “great” Cardinals managers, Matheny had the best winning percentage. However, Matheny inherited a team that had a winning percentage of .544 the previous year. The other 3 inherited teams who had winning percentages of .465 or less.

    4) The team Matheny inherited didn’t have Pujols and Carpenter so it was weaker. Yet, the 2011 and 2012 teams had almost identical BAs and OPSs and ERAs.

    I am not saying Matheny was the worst manager but he definitely was not the best. I still wish him the best and think he is a great human being.

    #60821
    Avatarbccran
    Participant

    Forsch – Your last paragraph says it all. It speaks for many of us.
    Thank you. A fitting way to complete this thread.

    #65474
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    #65524
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
    Moderator

    Paid - Annual

    I would think Matheny will get another shot at managing a big league ball club. It will be interesting to see where that will be. At Kansas City, there is no where to go but up, so the pressure to maintain the status quo would not be there like it was in St. Louis.

    #65527
    Avatargscottar
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    Seems like a logical place for MM to land. It appears that Ned Yost has about reached the end over there. The expectations and pressure to win would probably be lower in KC.

    #65528
    Avatargscottar
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    #74056
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

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    Royals interest in Matheny is back in the news, but this time as an advisor.

    #74058
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Interesting contrast to how the Cardinals handled Matheny, who received a three-year extension a year early – just after his team missed the playoffs. I wonder how much the Royals would have to pay him since he has two more years remaining on his Cardinals contract.

    Cubs seem to like the urgency that could come with Maddon being a lame duck.

    #74060
    AvatarCariocaCardinal
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    I have always thought the lame duck issue for coaches was a red herring.

    #74072
    AvatarBob Reed
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    I find your comment to be neither fish nor fowl, CC.

    Best of luck to Matheny, wherever he winds up. Mabry however can go jump in a lake. With the ducks and herrings.

    #74104
    Avatargscottar
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    Maddon is on the hot seat. It is World Series or bust for the Cubs. Look for Girardi to be their manager in 2020.

    Matheny will probably be the Royals manager in 2020 after one last year of Yost.

    #74903
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

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    #74904
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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