Matheny as manager – fired 7/14

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  • #59213
    bccran
    Participant

    Passion to do well for yourself is one thing, but putting the team first and passion for doing the small things to help win is another. Getting the runner over to third with no outs and a man on second. Hitting the cut off man. Going hard after a ball in the gap or in the corner. Hitting the ball where it’s pitched instead of swinging for the fences every time. Taking the extra base knowing you can make it when the ball is bobbled in the OF. Going hard legally into 2nd base on a double play ball. Encouraging a teammate to do well when he’s in a slump.

    I remember when a live microphone was in the opposing team’s dugout when David Eckstein was up at the plate one time. Two men on and two outs. Full count. He reached for a pitch on the outside corner at the knees and slapped it the down the line to the opposite field for a double. Heard from the opposing team’s dugout – “I hate that little guy”.

    #59218
    forsch31
    Participant

    Free

    Rat, if Baltimore would do that trade for Machado, Mo/Girsch better not even take a breath before agreeing to it. There is no way Baltimore would do that.

    #59222
    Ratsbuddy
    Participant

    Free

    I know Forsch. It was tongue-in-cheek.

    I’d even throw in Weaver.

    #59223
    bicyclemike
    Moderator

    Paid - Annual

    Passion to do well for yourself is one thing, but putting the team first and passion for doing the small things to help win is another. Getting the runner over to third with no outs and a man on second. Hitting the cut off man. Going hard after a ball in the gap or in the corner. Hitting the ball where it’s pitched instead of swinging for the fences every time. Taking the extra base knowing you can make it when the ball is bobbled in the OF. Going hard legally into 2nd base on a double play ball. Encouraging a teammate to do well when he’s in a slump.

    So you are saying neither Wong nor Pham do any of these. I would need to watch the games in person to fully see what is going on, but I thought both guys hustled and did do these things. They are not always successful, but at least attempt to get on base, use their speed and that sort of thing. Maybe not though, or maybe they do sometimes and not others. You are more in-tune with mechanics of the clubhouse and the games, so it sounds like neither guy is popular within the organization, with the reason involving a “me first” persona. Sort of modern day Dick Stuart’s in other words.

    Switching up a bit and going back to a specific on Matheny’s managing, last night’s game was one where he went back to his old mistakes with the closer. He brought in Norris for the ninth with a four-run lead, and a four game road series coming up starting tonight. The better move is to go with the well-rested Brebbia there, and have Mayers ready as well.

    #59224
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Good point, Mike. For all the press about the manager’s love of chess, moves like that one feel more like checkers.

    Let’s keep the Machado trade ideas on the Machado thread please. Thanks.

    I am not with the team on a regular basis enough to comment on these points from a first-hand perspective, but I find it hard to believe the organization would give Wong a five-year contract extension if they had concerns about his attitude and approach. Or is the suggestion that he softened up after getting the contract? Maybe his issue is with the manager, not the front office? Perhaps he doesn’t like chess? 😉

    #59227
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I think personality types and team chemistry is way overblown. I could care less who gets along with who. The Oakland A’s of the early 70’s couldn’t stand each other and their were reports of multiple fights between teammates. All they did was win three straight world series titles.

    #59244
    bccran
    Participant

    1.) Wong was nervous and filled with insecurities. He longed for acceptance. To settle him down and give him a platform to achieve his considerable potential, the Cards gave him a long term contract.
    It had not yet been warranted. Wong marched into Spring Training cocky, acting like one of the chosen. One of the core. It infuriated several of the long standing core veterans and they let him know it. Deep dissension in the clubhouse. You probably remember several closed door clubhouse meetings that Spring training. That’s what was going on. With Wong’s dreadful decline in offensive production this season, how do you think those same veterans are taking it?

    2.) You have a separate case of a player who had been in the organization for 10 years, had a number of physical problems, finally had an excellent year, and expected to be rewarded with a big contract.
    How do you think those same veterans felt about that? Especially when he went public with an f bomb laced tirade that trashed a storied organization they held dear, being a part of a National Championship they celebrated with
    the fans, the FO, and ownership.

    3.) How do those same veterans feel now about a player who was given a large contract and has now gone in the tank perhaps thinking about (and missing) his glory days, excitement, and comersderie during the big WS championship season on the southern shores of Lake Michigan?

    p.s. Gscott – Did you see the locker room interviews by the Astros players after they won the WS? All they talked about is how they became close as a team and the sum was greater than the parts. They talked about how great the team chemistry was. And how big of a factor it was in their success.

    #59246
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    The Astros also had a ton of talent. Getting along is great but the bottom line is production and winning. Remember Al Davis.

    #59247
    bccran
    Participant

    Whether it’s MLB, NFL, NBA, or NHL, most championship teams play well as a unit.

    #59249
    PugsleyAddams
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    You either want your players to all love each other……or dislike each other. Anything in between and the door is wide open for dissention and cliques. Give me a talented squad of players, who to a man, hate the ground their fellow players walk on, and I’ll show you a team ripe to do great things. It’s a thing of beautiful to see 25 grown men playing ball, doing everything in their power to not only beat the brains out of their opponents, but also out-do their despised teammates. As a manager, you get double the bang for your buck with this not often witnessed scenario. What do you think spring training is for? It’s not only to groom and judge talent, but also for the manager to decide which type of team he has to mold and how exactly he is going to accomplish it.

    #59254
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Holy cliches! One could probably take 99 percent of all post-championship interviews across any sport, substitute the identifying names, and exchange them with any other. Does anyone really attach special significance to them – unless they are the Cardinals of course?

    However, it would be great to see how Matheny and his players would handle the occasion. Wonder how many of this group will ever get there?

    #59255
    bccran
    Participant

    It’s all about having a group of veterans on the team that provide
    good leadership. We’re missing the Pujols, Berkman, Beltran, Eckstein, Clark, Holliday types.
    We have Yadi, Waino, and Carp, but I’m not sure how effective they really are.

    #59312
    bicyclemike
    Moderator

    Paid - Annual

    Players tend to stand by other players when it comes to compensation. Thus in the Pham non-contract situation, I would be surprised to hear that other players resented him being upset by not getting a better contract from management. Players usually bind together against management, rather than resent each other, when it comes to compensation.

    If I am a veteran, and one of my teammates has battled injuries and fought his way up the organization ladder for 10 years, has a great season and played a big part in us getting to within a game of the playoffs, I would be all for him being justifiably compensated.

    Plus again, from what I hear Pham is always working on his game. So the thing with Pham being resented by teammates does not pass the smell test for me. Maybe it’s true, but if so it is an outlier, as when it comes to compensation players are always for each other, not management. Did I repeat myself enough on that? 🙂

    #59335
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I’m guessing that if our team was in first place right now we would be having zero discussions about personalities, relationships, and chemistry because no one would care. I suppose you could make the argument that the reason we were in first place was because of the chemistry, etc….

    There is really no way for us to know that. It is almost impossible to quantify plus few of us really know what is going in the clubhouse anyway. But since we are in third place we are having these discussions.

    #59338
    bccran
    Participant

    Some posters (BW and others) know some people within the organization. Their comments may have credence.

    #59474
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Among side comments in this article is a view that Matheny has “broken through” in his relationship with Wong -but other problems mount.

    #59478
    bccran
    Participant

    Anyone think it’s weird that a manager has to “break through” with a 1st round pick who was given a huge signing bonus, underperformed, and then got a long term contact before he had earned it.

    The crack between MM and DF is wide. DF is at the other end of the spectrum from what MM respects in a player.

    #59485
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Regarding Fowler, that lack of respect from Matheny seems to be the case. Coincidentally, I just saw this.

    The manager’s job is to bring his team together. On Wong, none of us know how and why Matheny and Wong may not have gotten along before, but the two reportedly have found common ground. Silly me. I thought that was positive.

    #59486
    NJ315
    Participant

    Sorry bccran but that’s exactly the job of a manager. It is up to Matheny to fix the relationship with each of his player. He is older, wiser, and more mature. He should be a mentor not a grudge holder. Whether Wong earn his contract or not should not be an excuse not work on the manager/player relationship. In doing this Matheny did his job as it should be. Wong is a very good defensive player in a mediocre defensive team his value is even higher. As far as DF I wished they had never signed him. I was surprised when they did and never liked it. But he is here and until they figure out how to get rid of him Matheny also should work on that relationship.

    #59488
    bccran
    Participant

    Maybe MM has been working hard on the DF relationship and it just hasn’t come around. No manager can be Houdini with every player. If it’s worked with Wong, that’s great.

    #59489
    bccran
    Participant

    Maybe MM hasn’t liked the low productivity of DF. And his nonchalant attitude. Most fans haven’t either.

    Maybe MM hasn’t liked the low productivity of Wong.
    The way he swings for the fence every time. Most fans haven’t either.

    #59491
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Wong signed his contract 2 1/2 years ago. Their relationship seems to have progressed over the considerable time since.

    In fact, here is a story from May 2017, recounting Wong apologizing for a baserunning mistake and with quotes from both manager and player on their improved communication.

    https://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/ben-frederickson/benfred-wong-bounces-back-thanks-matheny-for-the-assist/article_7071fe19-fe0c-51b8-9f6a-52a693271d65.html

    So why pound on that old story line from before, assuming it is still binding today?

    #59513
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Another timely tweet, this one from Derrick Goold. He makes a very interesting observation about how he sees Wong being treated differently from other players. The unanswered question is, “why?”.

    #59518
    bccran
    Participant

    It’s a tough balance between offense and defense. Wong is superior on defense and inferior on offense. Quite frankly, when the rest of the team is struggling on offense, the manager has to get a hotter bat into the lineup.

    #59519
    Cardinals2016
    Participant

    Free

    He makes a very interesting observation about how he sees Wong being treated differently from other players. The unanswered question is, “why?”.

    Perhaps it has to do with Wong running his mouth about how he is going to be the leadoff hitter when Carpenter was in that role, or saying he deserves playing time over Gyorko because the team gave him a $25 million contract (never mind, Gyorko’s contract was bigger).

    As for the projections – according to B-R, Merrifield has accumulated 2.2 WAR this year to Wong’s 1.6. It’s great Fangraph’s thinks they are going to be roughly the same going forward this year, but the fact is Merrifield’s OPS is 130 points higher. Projections are different than reality.

    In terms of Goold’s assertion that Wong gets benched because of others, I don’t know. Seems like he is usually benched when he is not hitting, which is far more often than him on the bench.

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