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When the Cards deviated from their business model and started giving long term contracts to outsiders it eroded the base. The trades for
O’Neill, Schrock, Munoz, etc. were refreshing in putting some blocks in place for the future. Hoping for more of those.Giving out contracts to outsiders is not a problem if they are quality outsiders. Our problem is we gave out contracts to very average at best outsiders. The dream of having a 40 man roster composed of 100% home grown players making the minimum isn’t very realistic.
The Cardinals business model was always to see how an outside player performed with the birds on the bat, how he did under pressure, what kind of teammate he was, how he interfaced with the manager and coaches, how he interfaced with the front office, how he was with the fans, and how he molded with the community before making a long term financial commitment. They have strayed from that model with several outsiders in the past few years and it’s jumped up and bit them. Mo needed to deepen his diligence before signing them. Cards will be more careful in the future. Getting players like Ozuna, Leone, O’Neill, Munoz, Schrock, Greene, etc. gives them a needed look see.
That model worked ok in a different time, but times change. Holliday was the last of the old breed and that was in 2009 – almost a decade ago. (And even he went into free agency and did not re-sign until the next January.)
You assume that players still want to come to St. Louis and stay there when they get a chance to leave. How did Stanton fit into this model? Heyward? Price? etc…
P.S. I do not think the identity of the manager (the subject of this thread) is a significant factor in this matter.
It is very very obvious that St. Louis is not a destination for quality free agents any longer. There are numerous reasons for that and have been discussed on here before. The high crime rate, Ferguson, deteriorating infrastructure, plus the Cubs are the shiny new object in the NL Central. Chicago has its share of big city problems too but I guess Epstein is a better salesman than our front office.
Our only chance to get quality players from the outside are through trades with players without NTC’s.
The big time free agents want to go to big time markets. More exposure and higher endorsement potential. Perhaps more attractive nightlife if single. Has nothing to do with Ferguson, etc. Plus the Cards don’t want the risk (Davis,
etc.). The key has always been to get a player here and have him embraced by the fans so he wants to stay. It’s still a key. 40,000+ adoring fans each game still have clout and influence.None of us are qualified to state with certainty why certain individuals go to one place or another. Writing off potentially legitimate concerns as insignificant is one reason the problems continue, IMO, though these are difficult to address.
The idea of getting players to fall in love with St. Louis and them taking hometown discounts to stay is a thing of the past. The team knows that too, which is one key reason why they are now trying to acquire players with multiple years remaining (like Ozuna – successful, after Stanton – unsuccessful) rather than rentals – to shore up the roster when farm players are not enough to cover the needs.
Farm payers have never filled all the needs. The model has been to draft heavy in pitching and trade excess pitching to fill position player holes as needed. They just did that with Ozuna. Whether it’s an Ozuna who is only under control for several years or an O’Neill or Schrock who will be under control for 6 years, that’s probably the model going forward. And I agree with it. Paying pitchers a million dollars a start is obscene IMHO. So’s paying a position player $50,000 per PA.
Take a look at the last Cardinal World Champion team. Half the starting position players from inside, and half from outside –
Inside – Pujols, Rasmus, Molina, and Schumaker
Outside – Holliday, Freese, Theriot, and Berkman
When you look at the current 25-man roster, 6 of the position players started in the Cardinals’ system. 6 (7 if you count Fowler) were acquired from another team. However, the only 2 “key” players from the outside appear to be J. Martinez and Ozuna. Pena, Munoz, Gyorko and Fowler are being reduced in the their contribution to the team. O’Neill’s status appears to be temporary on the team.
You know a player doesn’t have to reside year round in the city they play in. I know I wouldn’t.
How many of the Cardinal players make STL their off season home?
I mean I guess you could see how the high crime rate the Ferguson stuff could play into some player decisions but I just think it’s a combo of many things. It was widely known Boston would’ve paid more than we would no matter what. Heyward liked the $$$ and the younger core of talent. Plain and simple Stanton didn’t want to play here and wanted to play in a huge market. What can you do?
The idea of stockpiling talent through the draft and trading it when you need to acquire above average talent is sound. However in the instance of Ozuna it hasn’t worked out like we thought. Trading Piscotty for Schrock and Munoz has sort of worked. Leone clearly was a roster clearing move from a position of depth. The jury is out. Clearly we are better at developing pitching than the true power bat – star position players.
Then there’s the other issues. It’s one step forward and 2 staps back on the FA market. For ever Norris and Mikolas there’s Cecil, Fowler, Leake, Gregorson and the much maligned Greg Holland. You can’t sustain success in making the post season flopping as much as we’ve done recently on FA. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t go after the big fish but we need to make a bigger splash than what we’ve done the last 3 seasons. For the last 3 years you’ve just felt like they done a little bit but not enough. That needs to change moving forward. I always liken it to hedging your bets rather than what we’ve done and go in feeling just ok.
We’ve got a lot of money coming off the books next year. We can get an impact FA or two. It’s really what this team needs not just cost controlled Ozuna, mid level starter $$$$ Mikolas and some junk for the pen. The Greg Holland signing really is still just odd to me how that went down.
There are a lot of factors in play there.
For one, the Cardinals had one of the best players ever to play the game in Pujols under contract and anchoring the middle of the lineup. I don’t think that it can be overstated that if this team had a guy who was consistently putting up 1.000 and above OPS numbers and playing elite defense at any position, the lineup would look a whole lot better.
In the time since Albert left, there have been what seems to be two distinct trends. One is that for the first few years, the Cardinals stayed afloat by having some sort of crazy, seemingly fluky thing happen every single season. Think about the RISP numbers in 2013, the team ERA in 2015, etc. but, some credit must be given to the front office for making some very shrewd moves, such as signing Beltran and developing a very good farm system that provided a lot of the needs of the team for the last 7 years. I also give some of the credit to Matheny who, despite some growing pains, generally held the team together very well in those seasons. They also had a bit of benefit and that there was no other real challenger in the division to give them a lot of hassle. That helps.
Since then, there have been a number of things that have really impacted the team’s ability to be competitive. The free-agent signings dried up, or were marked by cases where the Cardinals had to over pay in order to get a guy that might have been a marginal upgrade. Think Leake, Fowler. Their primary targets, guys like David Price and Jason Heyward, went elsewhere for bigger deals or seemingly brighter futures. There were some pretty big injuries, including guys like Wainwright, Reyes missing entire years and Wacha’s persistent injury. This year’s team especially has been bitten by the injury bug. Of course there was the tragic loss of Oscar Taveras. The smooth trades haven’t been as smooth as they once were.
On top of that, the Cubs and now the Brewers have ascended on the backs of high draft picks and good trades. The division is no longer easy prey, and the Cards haven’t quite adapted yet.
To be fair, the Cardinals are still doing some things well that they always have. They are managing to pluck average or so talent from places that are much more difficult to acquire that. The stream of cost-controlled young pitching is the envy of nearly every other farm system in the major leagues. For better or for worse, they can get a little too in love with that depth, which may have caused them to miss on some opportunities that could have really upgraded the team over the last few years in order to take a chance on a number of young guys growing into stars.
How much of the current struggle is due to the front office? How much is due to simply the players? How much is Matheny’s fault? I guess we all have our view on that, but it is not likely that we will see the front office fall on its own sword, so I expect that personnel (players then coaches) will be changed in short order if things don’t turn around.
Patience can be a plus. Ozuna might very well still be a good trade. Short term asset. Maybe we pick up another one at the deadline. Carp has come around. DeJong will be back soon. Additions of Leone, Holland, and Gregerson may still work. Wouldn’t it be great if O’Neill settles in. Mikolas, Martinez, Flaherty, and Wacha should be strong down the stretch.
Lots of hope. Still.These writer’s opinions are like noses. We all have them. This team is going to turn the corner when all pieces are back and healthy. Give MM a full deck to deal with and we’ll have a solid shot at the playoffs.
MM is most certainly on the ropes and looking like he might hit the mat at any moment. I really thought he was going to be shown the door last Sunday night. Obviously the players know of their skipper’s precariousness as well and will respond accordingly on the field of play. If the team continues in an uninspiring manner, how could MM not be fired soon???? At this point, my crystal ball has a guy named Manny coming to town and a guy named Mike exiting it. With this being said, I want MM to keep his job…..I want to see his players step up to the plate to make this happen.
If the unproductive players are kept on the bench we should be fine. Playing them just because they have high salaries is a recipe for failure.
The article states Dexter Fowler is the team’s highest paid player. I know Yadi has that contract extension that pays big money. But back to Dex, it is very telling and no wonder why the team is struggling when he is the highest paid guy on the team and isn’t even playing full time. This team has taken a cheap approach and shunned the stars that they need badly to stay relevant. It cost money to play this game as an owner. They can say oh but we tried all they want. Sometimes you have to go into the uncomfortable place to get it done.
They have misspent their money, not properly used their prospects, and the product on-field shows that. It’s been mismanaged at every level. They weren’t winning when the injured players were playing and they won’t win when they return. You’re lying to yourself if you think things get better.
They are in purgatory and have to change direction with the management if they want to shake loose from this three year malaise. They missed a golden opportunity last summer to sell. It may now be too late. The guys they have won’t command much in return, but they may have to suck it up and start selling no matter the return. Then after the season clean house both on and off the field. They need a new start.
Wondering if folks actually read the opinion piece linked to above. It cites recent history that suggests Matheny is NOT likely to be fired during the season.
FWIW, in annual salary, which is the valid comparison, IMO, Fowler is the third-highest paid player on the team after Molina and Wainwright, but one could certainly assert that his contract is the worst overall due to its duration.
Personally I don’t think MM will be fired during the season. His fate will be determined in October most likely.
Either MM has to go, or players like Fowler, Wong, and (maybe)
Pham have to go. They don’t fit with MM’s management style. My guess is that BDW favors MM over those players.I think all 4 that you mention need to find new homes, Cranny. That would be fantastic if we need only click on a link to reveal what the front office was or was not going to do. If the uninspiring mediocre play continues, I don’t see how MM doesn’t get his pink slip soon. Well let’s hope this is a moot point and our Birds start flying high once again.
Matheny will probably not be fired during the season even with a meltdown. He could decide to resign though. If we miss the playoffs again he may go after the seasons end.
Unfortunately he has been dealt a pretty bad hand by the front office in terms of trades and free agent signings. I don’t know how much say he has regarding those transactions so it is hard to tell how much responsibility for those misses. The front office performance could be a factor that saves his job for another year.
We have hung in so far because of our starting pitching, bullpen work by Hicks and Norris and an occasional awakening by our often slumbering offense. We seem to make so so pitchers look like the reincarnation of Cy Young and have a maddening tendency to lead off an inning with a double and then stranding the runner on second. Also it seems we often score early and then the offense does their Rip Van Winkle act.
Cranny, what is the rift between Wong & Pham, and Matheny? Both players strike me as hard-working, talented guys. Neither has played up to their capabilities thus far in 2018, but my sense has been that neither are trouble-makers. Pham has a chip on his shoulder of course, but from what I have read about him he puts in the work off the field. Wong shows a lot of passion when he does well.
Also, I think one key to being a good manager is the ability to work with guys that you do not necessarily get along with. If they can do the job, you play them even though you do not always see eye-to-eye. A couple of the most famous cases of that from long ago were Miller Huggins and Babe Ruth, and Frank Frisch and Dizzy Dean. The players drove the manager nuts in those two cases, but the manager was wise enough to know he needed to get through the situation and play those guys.
Now Fowler I can understand, if he is not putting in the work. You hear the stuff about showing up later than everyone, leaving earlier and all that so that might be a different situation. But if a guy is working at his craft, passionate about being one of the best, and has the tools the results will be there at the end of each season.
Talented players are a bit like the stock market. Their value will increase over their prime years, but in any given year they will likely be up and down a lot. You ride out the down times, and at the end of the year the numbers are good, with some years being better than others.
Wong’s defense at 2ndbase pretty much makes it a given that he isn’t going anywhere. He hit .285 last year. We’d be thrilled if he got close to that with his near gold glove defense at 2ndbase.
And I haven’t read through all 33 pages of this thread, but did anybody think about firing Jose Oquendo? As pathetic as some players are on defense he has obviously failed miserably.
I vote that we send Fowler, Martinez, and Holland to Baltimore in exchange for Machado – even if it does turn out to be for a couple of months.
r/Rat
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