Home › The Cardinal Nation Forums › Open Forum › Matheny as manager – fired 7/14
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June 30, 2018 at 9:39 pm #58620
Selling would also put the issue of Matheny’s future in an interesting perspective. If they were to sell, the chance of making the 2018 playoffs would seemingly decrease. Would it be fair to Matheny to not give him the best possible opportunity to save the season and his job?
Any team making personnel decisions based on how it affects the manager’s future has the wrong priorities. Teams can fire managers whether they are building or rebuilding or tanking or retanking. What they can’t do if they want to be competitive is worry about how their best decision(s) affect the manager’s future. I mean, are we all watching Oprah, or what? In general I have not liked Matheny’s managing. But I don’t think he’s the problem this season. NOT AT ALL. (Anybody want to bet Joe Girardi wouldn’t have been a much better manager this year than he was last?) That being said, Matheny’s job security doesn’t keep me up nights. I would think Mo is far more concerned with his own job security than he is Matheny’s. And that is the way it should be.
June 30, 2018 at 9:43 pm #58621gmaske71, I must not have posed my question clearly enough. I was NOT suggesting the team should make or not make moves based on the status of the manager. That should never be the reason for anything. Instead, what I meant is if they DO decide to dump, would that help Matheny’s chances of remaining?
Regarding your comments, do you really think Mo is worried about his job?
June 30, 2018 at 10:57 pm #58629I don’t understand why Jay was picked on! I’d rather have him than anyone on the current OF roster except Bader. Matter of fact I don’t think I’ve hated a cardinal OF more than this one with the 3 amigos in it. Guy gets more out of his talent and plays harder than any of these clowns in the OF. Ozuna is a joke! I want him gone and Pham dealt or DFA’d. Clearly that blowhard either isn’t what he appears to be, is pissed he didn’t get an extra half mil or can’t see anything!
June 30, 2018 at 11:52 pm #58639Jay would fit right in. He is on a current 0-for-22 skid and is batting .244 since joining Arizona.
July 1, 2018 at 11:04 am #58672Another thought regarding the notion we can’t sell because it would impact attendance and revenue:
Is it possible that continuing down the path of mediocrity and a directionless roster could also impact attendance and revenue?
July 1, 2018 at 11:15 am #58675Of course a continued slide would hurt revenues, but a trade off would almost certainly accelerate it. One might argue the eventual recovery could be faster, but that is a big unknown.
Even as it is, with ticket sales high, we don’t know the associated discounting. And if fewer sold tickets are being used, there is a loss of concession revenue, as well.
They could hold off until the off-season and try to re-ignite interest via some big moves. Like it or not, the wild card enables talk of being competitive until very late into the season.
A tough problem and we don’t have all the data to make an accurate assessment.
July 1, 2018 at 3:23 pm #58713P-D columnist Benjamin Hochman returns to words he wrote before the season.
Here’s my column from the @stltoday season-opening Special Section about manager Mike Matheny: https://t.co/aJ1H1Cn8Io pic.twitter.com/9BK1xEnLRt
— Benjamin Hochman (@hochman) July 1, 2018
July 1, 2018 at 4:20 pm #58723bccranParticipantTough to hold this manager too accountable when you give him –
1.) A first baseman who can’t play first base.
2.) A second baseman who can’t hit.
3.) A shortstop who’s hurt.
4.) A third baseman who can’t throw.
5.) A left fielder who can’t field or throw.
6.) A center fielder who hasn’t been hitting or fielding.
7.) A $16.5 million right fielder who’s so bad he has to be benched.July 1, 2018 at 8:01 pm #58749Let’s break this down:
1. Who fills out the lineup card?
2. As for Wong, I totally agree. I thought they should have moved on from him two years ago…If for no other reason than his me-first attitude.
3. Mo didn’t “give” Matheny an injured SS. That happened. It’s part of the game. It happens to every team
4. Again, who fills out the lineup and puts Carpenter at 3rd to make room for the worst fielder many of us have ever seen?
5. If you believe defensive metrics like UZR/150, Ozuna is ranked 6th out of 15 qualified left fielders this year. Of course, Schwarber is second…
6. They’ve known about Pham’s eye condition for years. Evidently, Mozeliak was out-voted in terms of keeping or getting rid of Pham. This sounds like a DeWitt decision.
7. Probably the biggest blunder of the Mozeliak era…one that is any other business would probably get the decision-maker fired. A $50 million overpay? Sheesh…but at least he has been riding the bench more frequently the past few weeks…which gets back to the person filling out the lineup card…Early in Matheny’s tenure, Mozeliak would trade away any pieces Matheny misused or did not use at all. I think right now, there are just too many pieces that have to be traded away, in combination with the front office having grown scared of making trades…
July 1, 2018 at 9:23 pm #58757bccranParticipantIf you could fill out the lineup cards, what would you change? The Cards are starved for offense because of the issues with Fowler, Wong, and recently Pham. Martinez is the most consistent bat in the lineup. Move him to right and play Gyorko at 3rd? He’s been a dark hole offensively too. Seems to me there aren’t any simple answers with this discombobulated hand that MM is dealt. Getting DeJong back and O’Neill coming up again gives this poster at least a little hope.
July 1, 2018 at 9:27 pm #58758If you could fill out the lineup cards, what would you change?
I would never let JMart be anything other than a pinch hitter. The only exception would be in a situation like last year, where we had one outfielder injured and then another got injured in the game, and it was either Gyorko or Greg Garcia had to go in the outfield. I would have had JMart finish the game.
July 1, 2018 at 9:42 pm #58759bccranParticipant.300/.368/.500/.868
13 home runs
52 RBI (extends to 100 for the season)You simply can’t afford to take that bat out of an already mediocre lineup.
July 1, 2018 at 9:49 pm #58760Matt Adams was hitting .275/.351/.575/.926 with 13 home runs before hitting the DL last week.
We traded him for a Single A player, and he could actually play defense.
While 1B isn’t the most challenging position defensively, we have seen too many times where we give away outs at 1B because JMart is beyond terrible.
An error costs a team an average of 0.7 runs. Think about it.
July 1, 2018 at 9:52 pm #58761But if you want to improve the offense, the answer is simple. Replace Fowler with O’Neill. Replace Pham with Bader. Replace Wong with a trade for Cabrera.
I just upgraded two positions offensively and defensively. One position offensively.
Moving Carpenter to 1B and Gyorko to 3B upgrades two other positions defensively.
July 1, 2018 at 9:54 pm #58763bccranParticipantDon’t to think about it. He’s our #3 hitter. He’s driven in 52 runs and scored 35 runs. He’s had 7 errors. The math tells it all.
July 1, 2018 at 9:57 pm #58764How many errors has he caused to be attributed to other people?
How many calls should have been errors, but weren’t called errors because the play was close and he didn’t stretch for the ball or scoop it up?
July 1, 2018 at 10:06 pm #58765bccranParticipantHis deficiencies on defense are well known. So are his positives on offense, which outweigh his deficiencies on defense. He’s accounted for 87 runs 1/2 of the way through the season. Bader is striking out at a 25% pace and has a slugging percentage of .398. Not good.
Here’s Gyorko’s line – .236/.289/
.376./.665. That’s putrid.
You want him starting every day?July 1, 2018 at 10:14 pm #58766bccran, those figures from the 2012-2014 teams are misleading.
2014:
Jay and Bourjos split CF playing time. Jay had a .303 BA. He has never been a high OPS batter but usually had a good BA. Also, Jay’s OPS+ was 112.
Craig and Taveras split RF playing time.
Descalso, Ellis and Cruz were all backups/spot starters.2013:
Desczlso, Robinson and Cruz were all backups.
You left out the OPS of most of the starters.
Molina .836
Craig .830
Carpenter .873
Holliday .879
Beltran .830
The Cardinals had the 2nd highest team OPS in the NL and the 10th highest in MLB.2012:
Cruz, Robinson and Greene were backups with a total of 509 PAs between them. That is less than 10% of the total team PAs for the year.
Again, Jay had a .305 BA to go with that .773 OPS. He also had a 113 OPS+.
OPS for most of the starters:
Molina .874
Craig .876
Freese .839
Holliday .877
Beltran .842
Carpenter .828
The Cardinals had the 3rd best OPS in the NL and 6th best in MLB.It was not nearly as bad as you make it sound.
July 1, 2018 at 10:21 pm #58767Let me explain it this way.
The Cardinals will be better off by:
1. Upgrading four positions defensively
2. Upgrading three positions offensivelyOffset by:
1. Downgrading one position defensively
2. Downgrading one position offensivelySo, here’s the basic math:
4>1 defensively
3>1 offensivelyBut hey, if you want to complain about the front office giving us a first baseman that can’t field, but then argue there is no better alternative to the first baseman that can’t field, then there is absolutely no reasoning with you.
July 1, 2018 at 10:27 pm #58769bccranParticipantHow are you upgrading 3 positions offensively? With 2 unproven rookies in the outfield and a third baseman who’s got an OPS of .665? At a corner infield position?
And you can’t add Cabrera into it because that’s nothing more than a fantasy trade.July 2, 2018 at 6:28 am #58772MM is what he is and that is a below average manager.
July 2, 2018 at 6:39 am #58773I don’t think Matheny is a terrible manager, but at some point when the team doesn’t meet expectations, change is needed. They’ve replaced some coaches, players, etc. It stands to reason that another missed playoff would mean the end of the Matheny era. Even though I sometimes get frustrated in season and wish for change, I’m okay with giving him until the end of the season to see if things can turn around. Teams go through bad stretches and suddenly catch fire all the time, and I’m not sure if the manager has as much to do with either of them as any of us seem to think.
Mo and Girsch have a longer leash, I would think…if 2019 is a complete disaster, maybe then they are gone. More likely, after 2020 if the team is not improving they will most likely be out.
July 2, 2018 at 8:41 am #58785bccranParticipantWhen the Cards deviated from their business model and started giving long term contracts to outsiders it eroded the base. The trades for
O’Neill, Schrock, Munoz, etc. were refreshing in putting some blocks in place for the future. Hoping for more of those.July 2, 2018 at 9:44 am #58799Most likely Ozuna and Pham will be better the remainder of ’18 than they have to date. DeJong and Wong should fit into that category as well. Getting DeJong back could be a huge boost. Carpenter, Molina, and Martinez likely will not be far worse than they have been. So standing pat with the primary lineup is not the worst choice the manager can make.
Again though, the defense is the big issue with the personnel. I would go with Bader in right so at least you have defense there, plus some speed on the bases (although Fowler still runs well). And I would go with Gyorko at third, Carpenter at first. Gyorko would hit much better than he has if he played every day. JMart is a pinch-hitter, twice-a-week starter giving Carpenter a day off here or there against a lefty.
People keep wanting to get rid of Wong, but if you look at individual WAR on our club right now, he is at #5 with 1.4. Mr. Offense Jose Martinez is at 0.9. DeJong is fourth at 1.7, despite missing so much time.
My main concern is more with pitching. The club needs more than one consistent starter in order to compete for a post season berth. We had that for two months with Wacha as the second guy, and while CMart was going well we could stay in games on a regular basis. But now things seem to be falling apart in the rotation. Flaherty looks like he can help stabilize things, but is an unknown at this point. Weaver looks to be a year or so away at least, but you have to run him out there and see if he can mature. It’s a work-in-progress rotation.
Then you have a bullpen that has never really figured it out.
In summary, if Matheny can consistently put out a lineup of Molina, Carp, Wong, DeJong, Gyorko, Ozuna, Pham, Bader, it will produce on offense and catch and throw at a quality level. I believe our final spot in the 2018 standings will depend on the pitching more than offense, and also hinge some on Matheny’s going with a better defensive line-up where players are in their best (what we might call “natural”) positions.
July 2, 2018 at 11:49 am #58816Once again benching Martinez is easy way to lose alot more games…offense is pathetic as it is, and you take away the best hitter it is going to become a joke!
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