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Look at managers like Joe Torre. He was considered an average manager for many years until he went to the Yankees with a loaded lineup. Suddenly, he became a great manager. I still think he was average, at best.
Great managers can get the best results out of marginal rosters. I think TLR was a great tactical manager but poor at player relationships.
Brian what you say is true but the truth is that its the FO that is to blame for the poor makeup of this team that they have given MM to work with. Yep, if someone goes it will be the manager taking the the fall due to someone else’s overlooked mistakes.
I do not believe any complex subject can be made that black and white. There are many factors that are in play – some for which the manager has control and others where he has less or none. The gray area is in how each of us assign weights to these various factors – but when all is said and done, BDW Jr.’s vote is the only one that counts.
I’m a bit disturbed about people who don’t like what Matheny is doing, or disagree with the way he handles certain aspects of the game being called “Matheny haters.” That’s an awfully strong word. Disagreement doesn’t equal hate. Even calling for his firing doesn’t equal hate. Wishing for something better doesn’t equal hate. I, for one, am rather ambivalent about Matheny. Sometimes he drives me nuts. Sometomes I think he makes moves that are spot on. Sometimes I wish he would “manage” a little less and just let things develop. Do that many people really “hate” him?
I don’t know about “haters”, but there are elements on multiple Cardinal forums who seem to lay any and all blame at the foot of the manager.
If a player isn’t hitting, it’s the fault of the manager for not using him the right way. Or the hitting coach isn’t doing his job and the manager should have fired him.
If a player runs into an out, it’s the manager’s fault for not stressing smart base running.
If a player loafs after a ball in RF, the manager doesn’t demand enough.
If a player goes back at first on a fly to center and it drops in front, it’s the manager’s fault for not knowing he is having problems seeing.
If a pitcher doesn’t perform, it’s because he wasn’t placed in a position to succeed.
If a pitcher has arm problems, it’s because the manager overused him.
If a starter is rocked in the 5th, it’s because the manager wanted to help him get the victory, and left him in too long.
If a starter is pulled in the 5th and a reliever is rocked, the manager shouldn’t have pulled the starter too early.
If a player is hurting or injured and doesn’t tell the manager, the manager should have know.etc., etc., etc.
I guess it’s just the nature of the fan to criticize the boss.
Yes fans “hate” Matheny — at least in the following context.
I follow all of of my favorite teams to some extent on internet message forums (NFL, MLB, NCAA baseball, NCAA football and NCAA basketball). The common denominator in all of them is, unless you’re winning championships (and even that doesn’t totally eliminate it), there is a vocal segment (small or large) of the fan base that “hates” the manager/coach. It’s human nature to find somebody to blame win you don’t win it all and the head coach/manager is the most likely target. This contention generates a lot of traffic everywhere. Nothing unusual here.I think what Brian said is very true…. there IS a lot of grey involved in any discussion about the manager.
Some people think that they would be a better manager and so many play manager and Monday morning QBs. Maybe its just easier to put blame on one person instead of pointing fingers at a bunch of people.
Me? I put the biggest part of the blame on the GM for getting the wrong set of players and expecting them to perform as a cohesive unit. There is some pulling in different directions and some bad chemistry, which has lead to a fragmented culture.
Look at managers like Joe Torre. He was considered an average manager for many years until he went to the Yankees with a loaded lineup. Suddenly, he became a great manager. I still think he was average, at best.
I was always a big fan of Joe Torre. His teams seemed to over-perform, and I was not surprised at all that he had the success in New York. His early Mets teams were not good at all, but played about as well as they could. Then he took over a moribund Braves club, and won a division title in his first year.
He also played a big part in turning around a St. Louis team that had hit bottom in 1990. He always seemed to have strong leadership skills, spoke with confidence and conviction, and got more out of his clubs than his predecessors.
I don’t think there will be a change in manager but if there is this is what I posted last week:
So who would the potential replacements be? The only external candidates that come to mind are Joe Girardi and John Farrell. Both have won world series. Farrell could be in line for the Reds job if he wants it. Girardi will probably have plenty of jobs to choose from.
Internal candidates would be Mike Schildt and Stubby Clapp. I don’t know enough about these guys to know how well they would do but it might be time to go back to hiring proven managers. One guy I am intrigued about though is Mark Budaska, not as manager but as hitting coach. If this guy is as good as advertised we should promote him before he leaves the organization.
The question is whether another manager can do better with the hand that’s dealt. Or if there needs to be several changes in the existing hand. Or if getting some players healthy is what’s needed most right now. If Holland, Cecil, and perhaps even Gregerson are effective and DeJong comes back strong are we a playoff team?
If that happens (Holland, Cecil, Gregorson, DeJong), and the rest of the squad is healthy and playing close to their career norms, we would be pretty good. Whether or not the club is a post season team would depend on how well the other contenders are playing. But I would take my chances with the group the Cardinals have given that scenario, and see where we wind up at the end of September.
The Cards relied heavily in 2018 on decent, productive seasons from Fowler, Wong, and Pham. If these 3 don’t come around, do the Cards still have a chance? Will there a be a surprise or two coming up from Memphis that help make a difference (Schrock? O’Neill? Mercado? Kelly? Ravelo? Hudson?), and perhaps an addition or two at the deadline that will push us over the top?
If Holland becomes dominant again, Cecil becomes reliable again, and DeJong starts slugging again, then yes we are a playoff team. Throw in an addition or two at the deadline and we could be dangerous. But those are a lot of ifs and they usually don’t go our way which is why I think we should keep our options open to being buyers or sellers.
The selling option plays much better in a world where ticket sales, actual attendance and TV ratings do not matter.
That seems to be the conventional wisdom but I think most Cards fans are sophisticated enough to handle a quick re-tool. No one thought the Yankees would ever sell but it worked beautifully in 2016.
Selling would also put the issue of Matheny’s future in an interesting perspective. If they were to sell, the chance of making the 2018 playoffs would seemingly decrease. Would it be fair to Matheny to not give him the best possible opportunity to save the season and his job?
In this scenario, could they keep him on, acknowledging they took away some of his necessary tools to win this year? Or would a sell-off seal his departure?
Interesting to ponder, though I doubt wholesale selling will occur.
I don’t think there would be wholesale changes either but if we don’t climb in the standings in July I think we could identify a couple of assets with value around the league to move to de-clutter our roster, open up space for currently blocked players, free up some payroll, and re-stock the soon to be depleted farm system.
It would only be a two month sabbatical of business as usual then we gear up to be competitive in 2019. Surely our fan base could handle that.
Under that scenario I would not penalize Matheny if we fail to reach the postseason.
IMHO MM hasn’t had one roster over his tenure that on paper could compete with the higher salaried major market teams – Boston, New York, Los Angeles, Washington, etc.
There has been a talent trend downward in recent years, IMO, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, bccran, but I think your memory of his earlier teams is foggy.
I may be foggy, but I do remember this –
2012 (of the top 13 players as far as ABs) –
Descalso – .627 OPS
Furcal – .671 OPS
Jay – .773 OPS
Schumaker – .707 OPS
Tyler Greene – .629 OPS
Sugar Shane – .665 OPS
Tony Cruz – .632 OPS2013 (of the top 13 players as far as ABs) –
Kozma – .548 OPS
Freese – .721 OPS
Jay – .721 OPS
Descalso – .656 OPS
Sugar Shane – .664 OPS
Cruz – .533 OPS2014 (of the top 13 players as far as ABs) –
Wong – .680 OPS
Craig – .638 OPS
Jay – .750 OPS
Taveras – .590 OPS
Bourjos – .643 OPS
Ellis – .466 OPS
Descalso – .644 OPS
Cruz – .530 OPSI don’t think that probably stacked up against the high payroll/big market teams.
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