- This topic has 999 replies, 39 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 8 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Is winning percentage the only objective measure for managers like you stated many times in the past yes or no?
If the manager has a competitive team, that matches up well with his opponents. Or is able to overcome injuries to key players and still stay in the playoff hunt. Or if he has a number of raw rookies
on the roster and is still able to compete. Under all of those circumstances I think W-L is a relavent stat.cont’d
so if MM gets credit for wins but NOT players performance he did pretty darned well…if he gets credit for players performances i think he still does pretty well…but it isnt black or white… its obviously gray…he definitely made mistakes…everyone does…he definitely had issues with bullpen management…but it’s hard to say if that should be his fault or not as he was working with a severely underperforming group of guys for a long time this season…. (some of that because we had no movement in the pen from AAA early because of contracts and option limitations)
-Piscotty, Diaz, Carp, Fowler and to some extent Grichuk were expected to be the core of the lineup and provide the offense its excitement….ALL underperformed in their new roles… MM’s fault? maybe…but even if so, then he deserves credit for the new players who replaced them OR with helping turn around those players to get better by the end
-Yadi, Peralta supposed to be vet contact hitters knowing their roles…Yaddi exceeded expectations while PEralta never recovered…..MM gets credit for Yadi? or not? but with Perlata it seems resounding failure of his managing skkills to run him out there when he did…yet MM gets NO credit for benching him and getting Yroko in over there and Gyorko filling the defensive void?
-Wong was an unknown but we had him handcuffed with Gyorko and Garcia if needed…yet he performed well when not injured…so…either MM deserves credit for getting Wong over his bad year last year OR he deserves credit for sticking with Wong..or he doesnt deserve credit6/9 of the offense was injured, severely underperforming for most of the year…at some times it was 7/9 with Wong on the DL… yet i say it again….we did not give up and we did not end up in last place and were in the playoff hunt until the last series..
MM replaced guys left and right trying to maximize the offense and defense going to minor leaguers often just to try to stay in the hunt…and it worked…Pham, JMart, DeJong, Sierra and Bader, Gyorko, Garcia for a bit, Voit and even Mejia for a spell…all had major contributions to keeping us in it… MM has to deserve some of the credit for keeping it all going and keeping us in it…his hand may have been forced at times, but that is still on him…and yeah..he made mistakes at times…but when 6/8 of your real offense and expected offense is struggling you have limited options for making it better…and how you keep trying to get guys right while also embracing that changes have to be made to make up for the problems
our system provided lots of options and that helped a lot…
cont’d
hahahaha you’re something else. Those qualifiers were never used way back when you kept telling that my opinion or anybody’s else were irrelevant. The only stat that proved Matheny was a good manager was his winning percentage. You listed his winning percentage compared to other managers. Repeated time after time how he was tops in the few years as manager. Now I come to find out that it depends on the roster.
You are changing measures after the facts you picked do not follow your current narrative.
As far as answering your questions the are rendered irrelevant by your change of measurements.
if winning percentage is ONLY the manner of determining worth then MM still rates pretty high…
he may have trended down in the last two years… but he is still far from terrible…
we were 12th in wins…out of 30
we tied for 11th in 2016
and 1st in 2015…
and 5th in 2014that doesnt look like a manager who does know what he is doing…it looks like one who has never dropped below 12th in the league in getting wins
IF we are going by wins as the sole determining factor… just simple wins and losses as determiner…MM has done very well compared to the rest of the league
sure a drop from 1st to 1th and 12th is big…but reasons dont matter in wins and losses as the sole determiner of worth for the manager…if he is as bad as some of you say then by the same standard he must have been the BEST as well…which no one seems to ever give him any credit for…
they blame him all day for the last two years but then say 2015 and 2014 he had no part of…that is absolutely illogical and completely bias to your opinion…
me i dont think wins and loses tell the whole story…and obviously not… but when you get into that WHOLE story it gets REALLY complicated REALLY fast…
so show me a better tool for determining manager worth than wins and losses…but if it comes back to vague opinions and specific games as proof that is just anecdotal information…
people still think our defense was abysmal…yet
-tied for 15th….ahead of everyone in the division except Cincy..and 5/10 playoff teams are lower than us…but advanced fielding metrics blah blah…people comment and discuss and REMEMBER errors more than range concerns.
-and defensive runs saved we were +4 13th…2nd in the division
– and YES we still rate very low on defense in several categories…but we arent the worst by any stretch even if people think we are…AND we got better throughout the year if you look closer into the numbers…getting much better after the beginning of the year…
and YES…we should expect better…but this isnt black and white…we are far more towards being good than we are to being terrible
it just runs around and around…
i found this article on fangraphs from 2016:
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/how-should-we-evaluate-a-manager/
doesnt make it much clearer..
More great stuff, Jager. I’ve asked NJ who the #3 and #4 hitters were coming into the 2017 season and he won’t respond. Let’s see if he responds in a detailed, logic way to some of your points. That would go for a number of the other posters too who are 100% negative on our manager.
I did not recall that Fangraphs article, Jager. Thanks for sharing. I know Eno Sarris. He is a very smart cookie and is one of the new wave stats guys brought into the BBWAA. He comments in that article that Matheny does not fare well in bullpen management, but was above average in setting ideal lineups.
As that was 2016 data, I looked to see if Eno had anything newer. This August, he gave his assessment of Matheny in a Fangraphs chat. FWIW, it was not positive.
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/eno-sarris-baseball-chat-8317/
I have no problem giving MM credit for 2014 and 2015 and simultaneously giving him blame for 2016 and 2017. Larry Bird believes a coach only has a 4 year life span even if successful until players start tuning the coach out. Maybe it is similar in baseball. We haven’t even discussed really what may be the worst thing that happened last year from a managerial standpoint. That would be the quasi insubordination of Yadi and Fowler (at least in the press) There was also Carpenter throwing Rosy under the bus. I don’t know if Matheny can get this part of his job back under control or not.
BC, are you now saying that wins and losses are the only definitive way of measuring a manager, depending on who he has to work with? Yes or No?
If no, what are you saying is the way to measure the quality of a manager? I have lost track.
Jager has laid the groundwork beautifully for a good discussion re the subject of this thread. It will be intereting to see who responds in a congenial and conversation manner.
Perhaps the “regression” started when Holliday went down with a fractured thumb on August 12th, 2016.
That was the end of an era of having a proven, experienced bat in the #3 hole. In Tony’s last year, they had Pujols/Holiday/Berkman. They then brought in Beltran and had Holliday and Beltran back to back in 2012 and 2013. In 2014, they brought in Peralta and had Holliday, Peralta, and Craig until Craig had gotten hurt. Craig had been the heart of the offense in 2013 (All Star). In 2015, they brought in a loaner in Reynolds to be in the lineup with Holliday and Peralta. By 2016, they were down to Holliday (who got hit with a pitch and fractured his thumb on August 12th), Peralta, Piscotty, and Grichuk. And finally, by 2017 they were without Holliday and had youngsters Piscotty, Grichuk, and Dejong (brought up the end of May), along with Gyorko who got injured.Jager hit the nail on the head. Piscotty and Grichuk were counted on to be middle of the lineup core players, and it simply hasn’t happened. Mo will now make a move. He has to.
“Really starting to wonder if bcran isn’t related to MM as he is taking this WAY to personally.” I’ve been wondering if he is MM!!!
why is it that defending MM or taking the time to defend him regardless of personal opinions is deemed a fanboy?
no matter what anyone tries to “prove” this issue is NOT black and white…good or terrible…and the management of the team has decided he is their guy at least for one more turn this next year…we can endlessly debate MM but they guys upstairs must be seeing something that would make them make that decision…if it wa so obvious then he wouldnt be back….they can make mistakes too…but they obviously see something in him…whether you like that reason or not it has been made..
so positing BCC or anyone else as being the ONLY ones that think MM is capable and deserving of keepign his job and another chance are definitely not alone…and perhaps unfortunately for many posters and fans that opinion is the one that is putting the manager in the dugout so that position and opinion has weight
trying to tease out why they go with that decision is not simple but it does take discussion to try to figure out AND coming to it with an open mind and without personal feelings…we all fail at that some times…but some people dont even try…
so without personal opinions in place why would the Cardinals decide to give MM another year? if it is all so obvious what are the obvious reasons he is getting another chance? It is a business and if it was so unbelievably obvious i dont see why Dewitt wouldnt make the move.
To me it reads as management still likes MM for the reasons they hirewd him…he did well early and has made a competitive playoff team every year even if he has missed out the last two years. And IMO they have determined that major factors to the Cards missing out have come from sources outside of MMs control, whether that is injury, death, poor play, luck perhaps even their own inability to give him the parts he needs to win. And because of that they are giving him one more year to get it figured out…
Which to me leads to the inevitable next question which is…unless they are willing to drastically change the team and some of those things that kept MM from succeeding with the club i dont see why he is staying///which is why i think they will be very active
i think the management sees a guy who is only a few pieces away from putting a very good team back on the field…he has already shown he an win a lot of games with the right players…and i think they know they have missed out on some of the guys that were supposed to help…and some of the projects and kids havent panned out the way they wanted…regardless of MMs impact on them
There is alto of pressure on management, coaching, and the players to get into the playoffs…i dont want to say “turn it around” because we have missed the playoffs the last two years by like 5 games total)…which to me seems like the clear identifier that the team needs a few key pieces…
the way MM managed this season with all the new kids and veteran upheaval with performance and injury IM was exemplary…and that is what management sees IMO…they see a guy who didnt have much to work with but ended up staying in it…
plus i think management had given up at the trade deadline yet despite that MM still pushed the team to the brink of the playoffs…and i think that management knows they made that mistake which is probably the reason the team didnt make the playoffs…we didnt need a ton more wins jsut a few…and few moves would have been all that it took…i also think they recognize their own failure last offseason after seeing how things turned out this year…an i think they recognize that isnt on MM…it’s on them…
now that isnt all of it otherwise Lilly would be back…there obviously was something going on with pitcher management that we dont know much about…
anyways…
Brian…nice link…though it is pretty surface level..id like to see the actual metrics instead of just referring to them with an offhanded remark… i thin kthe guy is super smart…but anyone could say well i have done all this research and it shows so and so is the best hitter ever…im not going to show you that info but i am going to say it
Question. Do metrics measure leadership, counseling, compassion, toughness, endurance, teaching, patience,
resiliance, motivation, etc?but they guys upstairs must be seeing something that would make them make that decision
That’s called they foolishly gave him a 3 year extension and don’t want to proven to be incompetent.
One reason that MM’s bosses have chosen to keep him is a natural tendacy not to want to admit or acknowledge a mistake.
bccran
Participant
Question. Do metrics measure leadership, counseling, compassion, toughness, endurance, teaching, patience,
resiliance, motivation, etc?Alternate question: Is it possible to have a manager who does all that AND provides great in-game management of players and situations?
Man, that would be great. Whom do you have in mind? Someone who can be all things to all people?
His players, his coaches, front office management, the media, the community (hospital visits,
public relation events, high end sponsor events, Winter Warm Up, Cardinal Caravan, Cardinal Cruise, etc.). Would have to be someone perfect in all/most regards.bccran told over and over at the old forum the ONLY factual stat to judge managers performance was winning percentage. Now he changed his tune and won’t acknowledge his prior statement. No mention of rosters composition until now. No matter what I said he always answered me…”that’s your opinion Matheny’s record speak for itself”. So that’s way I can’t engage him now, he is full of excuses for Matheny. He wants to talk about his excuses start by telling me what changed his mind.
I think the reason Matheny’s bosses want to keep him is that they don’t know who they can get to replace him. Joe Madden looked ridiculous last night when he brought Lackey in to pitch. Lackey has never pitched in back-to-back games in his entire career. Francona’s team has already been taken out of the playoffs. Who should they bring in to replace Matheny? Dusty Baker? Do they really want to start the learning curve all over again with an inexperienced manager? Besides that, I get the impression that MM works with the front office rather than acting like he’s the only one around who knows anything. I, for one, respect that. It shows some humility to admit that you don’t have all the answers. MM is going to have to do better, or eventually, he will wear out his welcome. But, IMO, that hasn’t happened yet.
NJ –
It’s not an accusatory back and forth game. This forum is not supposed to be constantly confrontational. Stop trying to call other posters out. Jager has laid the groundwork for a good discussion of our manager’s pluses and minuses. Why don’t you contribute, by commenting on and analyzing the #3 and #4 positions in the Cardinals lineup every year since and including 2011. It might display at least one of the keys to the “regression”. You could also be helpful by comparing the #3 and #4 we had in 2016 and 2017 compared to rivals in our division.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.