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if you want an example of this man’s leadership, compassion, understanding, and helpfulness read articles about what he meant to the team, manager and coaches on that fateful day in Chicago and the days following.
Seigrest, Wainwright, Piscotty,and Peralta – who kept putting them out there if they were too injured or mentally weak to perform? I am not evaluating that they missed time to injury (or Reyes would be on the list), only their performance when MM put them in the lineup.
Kelly – still doesn’t change the fact that he had a -0.4 fwar in just 70 abs.
Adams I’ll revisit later.
Daryl Kile.
And please don’t try to use a player’s first 70 major league at bats as any measurement of the manager.That doesn’t fly and you are well aware of that.
Daryl Kile.
And please don’t try to use a player’s first 70 major league at bats as any measurement of the manager.That doesn’t fly and you are well aware of that.
If it affects the team (and -0.4 fwar shows it does), then 70 abs is relevant. Who made the decesion to play him? Do you realize his negative fwar was equal to the combined positive fwar of 3 players I gave credit for exceeding expectations (Brebbia, Tui, and Sherrif). So how about we take Kelly off the under perform list and take those 3 off the over perform list?
It doesn’t mean Kelly doesn’t have a good future ahead, it only means that in limited action he way under performed.
MM was the person who helped the players, coaches, and manager through that difficult time.
Those leadership and depth of qualities and characteristics are what he’s all about. They still exist today. He may be weak with some in-game moves, but what really rankles me more than anything else on this thread are the posters who question his leadership, his intent, his desire, and his character.Bccran, I read the first 8 articles that showed up on my search of “daryl kile death matheny”. Other than a reference to him refusing to play not one of the articles mentioned more than his feelings about Kyle or recounted the story about the watcb Kyle bought for him. I saw nothing about how he interacted with other team members or even Kile’s family. Nothing that would show the traits you are claiming. If you have a few links I would be more than happy to read them but my due xilligence came up with zilch.
Johnny Bench the first season he was brought up –
86 at bats
.163/.207/.256/.462And you want to dis Mike Matheny over Carson Kelly? A perfect example of how people will try anything to bash our manager.
I dont remember anyone questiining his character. But to me, character falls in to the necessary but not sufficient catagory. In other words, I would expect any and all Cardinal managers to have character but it is not something that would make one stand out as a good (or bad) manager.
So Johnny Bench under performed his first season as well? Doesn’t change a thing. As I said, I am not using that as any predictor of how he will perform in the future only that this year he under performed. To what extent Matheny was involved with that is a seperate discussion but it is you who brought up player performance as a way of evaluating MM so for now the premise is the manager does affect it (good or bad).
Read Bernie Miklasz’s 6/18/2012 article entitled “Out of tragedy, Cardinals found inspiration”.
Dome should read it too since he likes to put some of Bernie’s articles on this forum. Maybe he forgot to post this one.
Why would he post an article from 2012 on a current events thread? It would be posted in 2012. He doesn’t need to re-post it just to satisfy one person who feels he is biased. He has very clearly stated that he will post positive articles when they come up. None have recently unless you know of some. And, once again, you, like anyone else, can post the link to positive articles.
One last point of contention: I don’t blame Matheny for guys playing bad. I blame Matheny for CONTINUALLY playing players who are playing bad. Example, continuing to run Oh out there in save situations. Example, continuing to play Piscotty when Martinez was outperforming him. Example, continuing to play Fowler in center when Pham was clearly the better fielder.
You are hanging your hat that Matheny should remain as manager on one paragraph written by a writer who I also believe has called for Matheny to be fired?
“I approached the Cardinals’ catcher, Mike Matheny. He was Kile’s catcher, and an admired team leader that helped stabilize his teammates after the horror of June 22. Matheny had led them in prayer after they’d been informed of Kile’s death. From that day on, he’d pushed them to keep going, to keep fighting, to keep doing everything they could to honor DK’s memory.”
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it but I wouldn’t expect a lot of support from that.
Matheny may be a great guy but if that doesn’t translate in to performance by his players it means very little regarding whether he is the right guy to lead this team going forward.
So he is a good person but not a good manager. Better for him than the other way around. In 6 years he hasn’t change or learn anything. The all telling and only fact according to you to value a manager is his winning %. He is regressing.
Regarding Kelly, maybe bccran is right, we shouldn’t include players on the list who were prospects coming in to the season as they don’t have enough of a track record to judge their expectation on. Let’s see who that leaves? On the over performed list that leaves only Pham and Lyons. The hole is getting deeper bccran!
warning…these are long…but i had to break them up because of the forum limitations….feel free to skip them if they are too long…i know i am long winded but it is how i think through things sometimes…so i apologize for your mouse scrolling
This team had MANY opportunities to give up on this season…but they did not, they still ended up with a shot at the playoffs despite all the upheaval and angst throw at them from basically the second week of the season
-poor start…but came back…
-we had a long losing streak again later…but came back…lots of ups and downs
-old dependable players being released or traded away…brought up new guys to fill the void…Brox, Kevin, Oh, Peralta, Adams….all gone…and the vet status on them gives them leeway…so yeah you have to run them out over and over…veterans deserve those chances to get back to what they had done…so yeah you lose some of those games because of it…but until the org is willign to move them you cant really do anything…
-new players expected to do well but floundered…find someone else get them in….Diaz, Piscotty two MAJOR parts of what the offense was supposed to be about…add Grichuk in too to some degree
-players we had given up on and written off turning it around…Wong was basically a platoon partner with Gyorko for most people coming into the season and yet he had a very nice season
-role players stepping up in various ways… Gyorko’s power was obvious…but his raised level of defense was a revelation this year…Pham always a role player but turned into a star
-lose the vet of the team and rotation…a kid comes right in and helps (Waino was up and down this season and when we lost him it could have been the end…but it wasn’t Weaver and how he wet his feet in 2016 and the bullpen earlier in the year…stepped right in and amazed)
-closer situation from day one was a mess and we got Rosy back on track to take it…but then lost him to injury…after that we didnt even really have a closer…Lyons was the closest thing to it and getting him into that situation was definitely not on ANYONE’s radar before the season yet MM got him into that role and he did pretty well…
-lots of injuries to key spots…new players stepped up…Fowler played well when he was in there, same with Wong but both got the injury bug right when they were most needed…Carp’s injury too..
-dependable players having really off years…Carp’s down year as bad
-getting no help from the front office with acquisitions to fill the holes
-defense started out terrible and got better (after releasing Peralta and sending Diaz down)
-baserunning issues were especially bad early on…but righted themselves for the most part after the coaching changes happened…still more mistakes than need to be…but we were a young team for most of the year…and the lack of a steady big bat in the middle forced us to feel the need to be super aggressive..-we were almost literally fielding a AAA team at the end of the year yet we were still right there until the last series…that has to say that MM has SOME ability folks…he coudl have thrown in the towel at any time and no one would have blamed them for losing every game had they went super young and called this a “rebuilding year”…
Seems to me people are MORE upset with MM this year because he actually did do a good job of making the team he was given, and the performance they could give, into a playoff competing team… too much of an attitude of being an MVP or being a scrub mentality to me and doesnt seem appropriate for baseball nor in the determining of whether a manager is good or bad…
so many poor things happened this year BUT the team still stayed in it all year and did not give up…
it wasnt pretty and lots of growing pains (both getting old pains and youthful mistakes)
cont’d
Jager is like a college professor in a class room of TCN students. Thank goodness for some objectivity.
Long post do not mean quality. Once again stick to baseball and stop with posts critiques. It is getting old. Simple, his winning percentage has regressed you stated over and over again that was the only objective measure. Is it or isn’t? Excuses are for those who can’t do the job.
Why don’t you address some of the details in Jager’s post if you want to talk baseball. Or some of the points I’ve made to a lesser degree in some of my posts.
Here’s a specific question for you to answer, NJ. When the option wasn’t exercised on Holliday, whom did MM have for a proven #3 (and #4 for that matter) hitter in the lineup. To compete with the Cubs, Nationals, Dodgers, etc.
Will be interested in your answer.I will answer when you answer mine. You used winning percentage time and time again. You told me several times at the other forum that was the only and quote “fact”. that counted when judging a manager. Did you change your mind when his percentage went south or do you stick buy it? All read from you are excuses for Matheny.
Reasons aren’t excuses. If the entire Cardinals starting lineup went down to injury in the early part of the 2017, would you expect the manager to miraculously find the answers to compete with the Nationals, Cubs, etc. If they regressed under those circumstances would you call it “excuses”?
Now, please answer the question.
Who were the Cardinals #3 and #4 hitters going into 2017. And if you can’t come up with a decent answer would you still tab it an “excuse”?
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