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Good point, Mudville. Mike is all about humility. He also professes that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Team first, self second. Selflessness. Players who don’t buy into that can cause a problem. It happened this year.
Causing a weeding out process that started during the 2017 season and is ongoing today.Nice try bccran. You can spin it all you want. You changed your tune when it did not fit your narrative anymore. You know what you wrote you just refuse to own up to it. Never before now you wanted a discussion of rosters or lineup construction. You answered any criticism I made of Matheny by bringing up the only fact that you said that counted. Now is all about weaknesses and strengths. Now you want a discussion.
No. Mike Matheny was not only Molina’s mentor, but in doing so he knew he was giving up his starting job with the Cardinals. Yadi learned selflessness from that. He owes a great deal to Mike and is aware of it. Molina’s extension created an issue, because his job is to mentor Kelly, but he won’t be traded like Mike was to clear the way. Kelly should be given a shot at playing some 1B.
Fowler needs to take on a much more proactive leadership role. If he doesn’t he won’t be a Cardinal very long.
Every team wants a better manager. MM hasn’t worn out his welcome yet. Hopefully, he wins the division next year. With Reyes coming back, a much improved Cecil in a much improved bullpen, and a power bat, he has a decent chance of doing it.
At this point winning the division isn’t enough. He needs to show improvement in the postseason and not looking bewildered during games.
A reminder that the #misinforming social media post directed at Matheny by Molina was liked by Fowler, Wong and Pham, according to the Post-Dispatch. (Other reports also mentioned Greg Garcia and Kevin Siegrist.)
Also according to the P-D, Matheny met with Molina before Kelly came up and went to lengths to explain to the media afterward, as well. It was not about being tired, but fear of injury. It was not about miscommunication.
It looks like the manager did nothing wrong in how he handled it. But the other players going public in sympathizing with Molina left additional unanswered questions about the clubhouse.
Never know who you’re going to meet. Just met Mark Grudzielanek in a restaurant in a hotel. Talked to he and his wife for 20 minutes or so. He would like to have stayed with the Cardinals after the 2005 season. He asked for a 2 year contract at $3 million a year. The Cardainals said that they didn’t want to pay that much for that position. Too bad. He could have provided stabilty at 2B at that time.
Do you ever post anything positive, CC? Or do feel it’s productive and necessary to backhand another poster.
You can put down MM all you want as far as his game management, but if you try to put him down as a person you’ll make a fool out of yourself. He’s probably twice the man and twice as successful in his profession as you, me, and most of the other posters are.
Bccran, if you want to make this personal, I’ll go toe to toe with you all day long. I’m only not going to do that now out of respect for Brian.
But I will question your reading comprehension. I have never questioned anything about MM’s character, personality, intelligence or any other personality trait. I have questioned the of his ability to translate those traits to player performance and wins. I do feel sad for you bccran if you can’t see that difference. (Ok, I’ve made it a little personal – but I’m just expressing my empathy) In the end, I am just not sure he is the right man to lead this team at this time. Am I not entitled to that opinion? That says nothing about MM as a man.
Note: when I started participating in this thread, I actually supported MM staying as manager. The more I’ve looked at it and seeing the weak arguments of his defenders have convinced me he should not stay. Unfortunately, I and others here don’t really have a vote so I’m not going to stress over it.
hey Mr. Bccran if you think of yourself as less than a man and less successful than Matheny that is your prerogative but I don’t so you can stop including in your assertions. Thank you.
Didnt Brian already come in once and tell everyone to stay on baseball?
just stop, if you dont want to talk about the topic then dont comment…if you cant make a comment without attacking someone or backhandedly talking about someone then dont comment…
if we cant do this then we should shut this thread down as all it is doing is provoking and antagonizing people
id prefer the topic stay open and people to talk about baseball…but some people dont seem to be able to state their opinion without antagonizing another poster or group of posters at the same time…if you ant make your argument without putting someone else down for having their own argument then it is pointless
Some people cant seem to disassociate a person from a person’s opinion, nor can some people consider that opinions change over time, or that some people can write something just to talk about it whether they agree or not…
i include myself in this “demand”…and thus will end my post that is specifically about what shouldnt be happening albeit not-maliciously…
im not a moderator obviously so listen or dont listen…but really are we all not adults enough to stop this bickering without Brian having to step in?
Id say just about everyone in here is part of the problem, so that means it’s everyone’s job to be a part of the solution…so everyone should make a change…myself included
I think brianpnoonan’s comment on the first page somewhat sums up my current thoughts on the subject.
“I am not sure that matheny is part of the problem.
I am positive he has not been part of the solution.”
I have absolutely no interest or the time to go “toe to toe” with you, CC. And I actually don’t even know how to interpret that anyway. I’ve already said you were a good poster and person. Maybe you’ll just accept that and back away.
NJ – you’re comment is so wrong and self promoting it has to be categorized as satire.
It would really be great if posters like Mudville, Jager, and I could discuss MM in an objective
way, and those who don’t want to have that plus and minus back and forth discussion give us room and peace.Satire??? What is wrong with you? Is your worship for Matheny so deep that you called him twice the man you are?? Get a grip man.
seriously bcran get over yourself you are not going to just talk to people who only feel like you want them to feel good lord get a clue already! Your I am the only one who can be right attitude is childish at BEST!
Onyx – can you please discipline yourself to behave in a kinder and more gentlemanly way? Same for you, NJ. Thank you very much. And yes, even though I’m relatively successful in business, I don’t pretend to be as successful in my profession as Mike Matheny is in his as a major league ball player and his position as major league manager.
Now – Jager and Mudville, do you have any idea why Piscotty had such a regression, outside of his parent issue? And why with all the instruction Grichuk can’t seem to gain more plate discipline? Those 2 have been less than satisfactory as middle of the order bats. Mo
probably put too much stock in them and now is forced to make a move to give Mike more consistency at #3/#4.Once again, posters have no right to tell other posters what they can post and what they cannot. Further, people continue to make direct remarks about others instead of about the subject of the thread.
I have asked for this to stop on multiple occasions, but it is continuing to be ignored. I am not going to shut down threads, but it is getting to the point where I will have no choice but to shut down posters who cannot follow the rules.
If this continues, I will issue formal warnings, with the next instance to be considered a first strike per the posted site rules. I do not want to go there, but the problems continue. These individual warnings will occur privately.
You are all guests here. Please act accordingly.
In closing, I do not want to read your retorts here on this thread and other community members do not, either. As the rules state:
6. Moderators have the last say. All actions and orders given by the forum moderators pertaining to this forum are final. You agree not to challenge or confront the decisions of the moderators publicly on the message boards.
If you cannot or do not want to follow the rules, then you may want to consider finding another forum whose climate is more agreeable to you.
OK want to keep it about Matheny here is a good article about his game management in one of the bigger games of the year…
https://redbirdrants.com/2017/09/26/st-louis-cardinals-matheny-strikes-again/
I forgot to mention that I will selectively delete posts without warning added to this thread that are not directly related to the subject of this thread, “Matheny as manager” – even if well-intended. The discussion has to get back on baseball. Thank you for understanding, but if you don’t, I don’t know what to tell you that hasn’t already been said.
I’ve been reading this topic lately because at this time of the year there is little else going on besides the awards of players of the year, the AFL… and our own community prospects list. This is the hot topic but it is moot because Matheny will be the manager next season. The FO picks the manager. If some want to vent their frustrations about that, that’s fine, that is why we have these forums.
But in my mind there are two main reasons why it seems that Matheny’s performance was the cause for the Cards missing the play-offs, besides the consensus opinion of poor BP management. (which I don’t agree with, but that’s for a later discussion).
The FO rolled the dice with a number of players which is normally the case in this business. They crapped out with more than they rolled sevens on. Again, IMO, the FO didn’t put together the right set of horses to have this team succeed in ’17. We didn’t have the feared slugger that we needed. This was a boring team until the younger guys were brought up… DeJong, Bader, Weaver, Flaherty, Alcantara, Sherriff, Sierra. These guys provided some excitement and change. Who did the FO add to make this club better? Fowler? Cecil? These were the ones brought in to make up the difference between us and the Cubs? Not even close. That’s reason #1.
The FO has given out some contracts that are, IMO, unsound. The Fowler contract was done in desperation to upgrade the defense, so they said, and to provide a proven lead-off hitter. He was not the muscle that was missing and he cost a bundle for a long time. Molina’s contract was handed out to appease the partisans. Those deals created a major problem for Matheny. Emboldened, the tail is now trying to wag the dog. What I see is that these two have instigated the undermining of clubhouse authority. It began to spread, others took part. The FO sits by. That’s reason #2.
I blame the FO for not providing the right horses for the team to contend in ’17 and allowing chaos in the clubhouse. In many ways it was a lost season other than providing some MLB experience for the younger guys. Was that a strategy? Had the Cubs put too much distance between us? Was the FO looking at ’18 instead. Perhaps, at least in my mind, yes.
A manager is usually as good as the cards he is dealt. Matheny has been dealt a less than stellar hand by the FO. That’s where the blame lies.
Okay that’s my two cents or more from the cheap seats. I could go on but I ran out of coins.. and space.
Have fun debating this topic, I’ve had my say.
ps…. not too many complained about MM when we were making the play-offs.Hey, it was 32 years ago yesterday that Jack Clark hit that clutch HR against the Dodgers 10/16/85. I just watched it on youtube… it was awesome. Check it out to relive some Cardinal magic.
14NYQUIST – I disagree there were still alot of people complaining when MM was making the post season because he kept looking stupid and making stupid moves and getting completed out classed by the other managers he faced!
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