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How is it possible that Matheny leaves his starters in too long, but also burns through bullpen arms? Our bullpen was atrocious in letting inherited runners score all year.
He uses the same guys repeatedly in high leverage situations.
That’s one thing I remember larussa talking about so much. He would throw unfamiliar guys into high leverage situations early in the year to see how they did because he didnt want to burn out his bullpen. He lost quite a few games early that way but his teams generally got hot at the end of the year (see: 2006, 2011).
Matheny hasnt learned the lesson yet apparently.
Seems like a good thread to shamelessly bump, since it appears around St. Louis that fans are talking about him. They’re discussing his strengths and weaknesses. His pluses and minuses. Since apparently at this juncture he is going to be here at least starting the 2018 season, what good things does he bring to the table and what does he specifically need to work on?
id like to see him stick with a more consistent lineup…these past two years may be outliers with all the injuries in 2016 and the poor early performance of several players this year… but id prefer to see him stay with a lineup not just a few guys IN a lineup at specific spots in that lineup but the whole thing…maybe 5 days a week the same lineup, less mixing and matching…you can only develop guys that are consider “go to” guys by actually going to them and developing them into that type of player…i think the way we saw MM put DeJong in the 3 spot and let him figure out how to do that was very ballsy…and it worked DeJong flourished…even Fowler in arun scoring spot was good…JMArt too…
IMO you use ST for this…you work out the guys in spots and really test them there…then you go with that lineup for a majority of the week…
id also like to see a more warming up multiple guys in the pen for end of game situations…have a guy you are going to go to but also have his handcuff warming up too…out side of maybe the designated closer…always be able to pull a guy if he isnt working right away..we cant afford to use a guy for 5 hitters if after the first two we can tell the guy doesnt have it and THEN warm up someone else…
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there is a lot more but those two jump to my mindTerrific, jager, thank you. Would like to see BN, BlackHills, Onyx, and our moderator weigh in on the pluses and minuses. That would enrich a productive discussion.
Everyone has both pluses and minuses. I’m sure for a manager who just about leads MLB in victories over the past 6 years you can come up with a few pluses.
How sad. It must be difficult to watch games if you see nothing positive at all in the manager of the team. Seems to me we all have our strengths and weaknesses.
Don’t we? Would like to hear a fair assessment of both with MM.It is sad and apparently I’m not the only one who felt this way. In case you missed tv ratings were down and key dates didn’t sell out. What’s truly sad though is the blind Matheny kool aid drinkers.
Please stop with the baiting and name-calling. If people have nothing new to say, then let this thread drift down the page until there is.
I think this was a year of lineup upheaval. Peralta failed at 3B and was cut. Diaz regressed badly at SS and became a minor leaguer again, after being on the National League All Star Team.
Piscotty had a very difficult regression year, including family issues. Fowler had a lot of nagging injuries. Gyorko got hurt at a critical time. Grichuk showed no significant improvement. Leake tailed off badly and was traded. Waino had an arm issue. Broxton totally failed and was cut. Oh was a huge disappointment, and lost his closer’s role. Siegrist never got his velocity back and was cut. Cecil never settled in to be what he has been before. Socolovich was a bust. Rosenthal ended up going down. Etc.As Brian W. has said, all teams have changes during the season. In my opinion we sure seemed to have a lot. I just think that all of the above played into it and can’t be blamed in it’s entirety on the manager. Hopefully in 2018 we can settle into more of a set lineup (with a positive addition or 2), and see how it goes before making a final judgement on MM.
We definitely had the team to win the WC2 taking into account the changes. Pitching management killed us as I pointed out several times.
Thanks again, jager. Good points presented with good detail. I’d very much like to see a set lineup too.
Do you think sabermetrics is behind some of it? They look at all the analytical data on a pitcher they are going to face, and that determines the position player lineup? Or they see who’s coming up in a later inning, and match our pitcher’s strengths to their particular weaknesses? I’ve met Girsch and know he’s a strong analytics guy.
My last post on what appears to be a pretty useless thread.
We have those that would still be against Matheny if the Cardinals won 130 games and swept everyone to win the world series.
Then others who would defend Matheny no matter what.No real communication. Sorry state today as everyone becomes an expert because of the internet and have no tolerance for others ideas. Don’t bother us with facts. We already know all the answers.
A study presented showed that Matheny was 30th in league in managing his starting pitchers. Didn’t see anyone pointing out that Madden was 29th in one part of the study and bottom third in the other. Or that Francona was bottom third in both portions of the study.
Questions are what relief pitchers are being compared to the starters. How many runs were actually scored in our starters last inning pitched and how many runs inherited by relievers were allowed to score. Or how many games we actually lost where starters gave up a run or more in their last inning pitched. Or how did our relievers compare to other teams. If I were manager I’m not sure who to trust among our bullpen staff and maybe I would like to go a little longer with a Lynn, Martinez or Wainwright. By the way the study confirmed my gut feeling but I’m still not convinced I am right. Would be nice to see some of that kind of discussion rather than what we have in all of these posts.
Happy posting.
Getting back to sabermetrics. Is it better to put players in the best possible position to succeed (Adam against only right handlers, etc.), or play the same lineup every day?
I think I’d rather see the same lineup – Hemus(Solly), Schoendiest(Redhead), Musial(The Man), Jablonski(Jabbo) Repulski(The Ripper), Lowrey(Peanuts), Rice, etc.
Also, it seems like MM at one time had a cookie cutter approach like many managers – his 7th inning guy, his 8th inning guy, and his closer. Then the failures started to happen (Broxton, Siegrist, Oh, etc.) with those pitchers and it threw things upside down. Was it his bullpen use, or did some guys just let him down?
If Matheny won a 130 games and won the world series (or how about just winning the WS) I would stop my ranting against him. But after 6 seasons as the manager he has never bothered to change his style, adapt to in-game changes, and continues to misuse his bullpen. Maybe the bullpen and pitching problems was him relying too heavily on Liliquist. Next year should determine this. What I find odd is Liliquist right now is the scapegoat when even a casual fan can look at splits and match-ups.
I’m a casual fan and don’t know the meaning of splits and matchups because I don’t know the underlying sabermetrics and the condition of the players. Maybe they have a flu bug, or just aren’t felling well. Or they pulled a muscle that’s being treated.
I would indeed like to see a set lineup, but that means you really have to be solid at every position.
What happens if we go with Carp,
Pham, DeJong, Martinez, Gyorko, Fowler, Molina, and Wong on a solid 5 day basis?One thing that happens is that we have marginal defense with Carpenter at 1B, Fowler in CF, and Martinez in LF. I hope this doesn’t happen.
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