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I am pretty sure that fan interest/revenue, as measured by attendance and TV ratings, is a key part of every club’s business plan. Of course, it is not the only factor. Still, I am surprised that seems to surprise some.
A number of teams in every professional sport every year realize they may not win a title, but ensure they are profitable.
There have been several teams in recent years declare “we are going for it” only to fall on their face due to the lack of discipline and foresight it requires to know when to re-tool. To me it is just pandering to fans who don’t want to hear the truth.
The Phillies held onto their core for too long.
The Tigers did it.
The Royals did it.
The Giants are doing it.
The Orioles are doing it.
The Blue Jays are doing it.All of those teams are now facing a train wreck and a long long climb back up the ladder. I understand wanting to sell tickets now but at some point you have to be honest with your fanbase as to what your situation really is.
Off the topic a bit… the Cardinal’s FO is pretty high up there when it comes to pandering to fans.
Tsk,tsk.tsk.By the way… DET went the trade prospects for MLB players route and their farm system has hit a drought warning.
Forget about the Tigers until somewhere in the 20’s… if then.Yes, I think that’s what I mean as well. The Jays seem to be pandering to fans rather than putting the long-term health of the roster as their primary concern, just like the Royals last year. Re-tooling should involve some actually roster turnover.
The Jays have been acquiring talent at the expense of their farm system since 2013 when they traded Syndergaard and d’Arnaud to the Mets for RA Dickey. The Reyes/Buerhle trade cleared out DeSclafani, Hechavarria, and Marisnick, the Donaldson trade cost them Barretto, the Tulo trade cost them Hoffman, the Price trade cost them Norris. (Imagine Stroman, Sanchez, Syndergaard, Hoffman, and Norris all in one rotation…jeez)
I’m not advocating for the Jays to do a complete rebuild, but to trade their 2018 guys for players with more control. Guys like Donaldson, Smoak, and Happ would be great trade candidates, while Osuna wouldn’t be needed for 2018 realistically. It makes sense to plug some players in that will fill your 2018 holes and shore up for a 2019 run.
Jon Morosi seems to be thinking about these issues as well:
On #BlueJays, I’m curious about the extent to which franchise’s renaissance (since 2015) relies on continued presence of a star position player (e.g., Donaldson) or if young fan base and thriving downtown core can sustain strong attendance through rebuild.
— Jon Morosi (@jonmorosi) December 27, 2017
My outside perspective: #BlueJays have one of the most engaged, knowledgeable fan bases in @MLB, and they probably realize winning the AL East will be difficult in 2018 with Stanton in New York and (possibly) Martinez in Boston.
— Jon Morosi (@jonmorosi) December 27, 2017
Question for #BlueJays fans: Do you believe Jays could trade Josh Donaldson this winter and still rank among the top three AL teams in attendance in 2018? (Toronto has led AL in attendance in back to back years.)
— Jon Morosi (@jonmorosi) December 27, 2017
14NyquisT
Off the topic a bit… the Cardinal’s FO is pretty high up there when it comes to pandering to fans.
Tsk,tsk.tsk.The Cardinals haven’t had a losing season in 10 years and that was the only season this century.
All these teams have had losing seasons…and still went for it the following season:
The Phillies held onto their core for too long.
The Tigers did it.
The Royals did it.
The Giants are doing it.
The Orioles are doing it.
The Blue Jays are doing it.I think there would be very few fans that would want a tear-down after winning 83 games last year (3-year 90 win average) There is a lot of talent here and much more on the cusp that can be used to improve the team going forward, IE, getting someone like Donaldson. We also don’t have a lot of high-end talent that is close to FA and worth trading, like a Donaldson. I think everyone agrees that a slugger (Ozuna), a starter (Mikolas), and a closer would fix most of our teams’ issues …. along with a second slugger ~ Donaldson, another ace ~ Archer, and another flamethrower, haha.
Perhaps trading Lynn would have been a smart move, but it would have been un-wise to give up on a season, when we were tied for 1st at the time.
Pads, you pulled comments from two different posts that really aren’t related.
I never stated that the Cards had pandered nor do they have any reason to.
I’m not sure what your point is regarding the other six teams mentioned. Yes, they kept going for it when they shouldn’t have.
I will wait until I see what the Lynn comp pick turns into, however in 12/27/17 hindsight, I wish Lynn had been traded. One problem is that the acquiring team would not get a comp pick, so the offers may not have as good as the 2018 comp pick could be. However, the biggest inhibitor to trading him I suspect, I will cover at the end of this post.
For the record, after May 16, the 2017 Cardinals spent exactly ONE day tied for first place (and none in first place alone) – and it was after the non-waiver trade deadline, on August 12. Over the entire season, the team spent more than twice as much time in fourth and fifth (last) place than in first.
On July 31, they were under .500 and in third place. In fact, they had been in third place (or lower) for almost all of the prior two and a half months and had been under .500 for almost two months straight.
Back to our business discussion from earlier, a Lynn trade would have been akin to waving the white flag, which would have had a considerable negative impact on August and September ticket sales and TV ratings. Sure, they had a chance at the playoffs, but the odds were generally below 20 percent all along, as I recall. Still, it is better for business to foster some hope than admit defeat. (Not being critical, just being honest.)
I’m not being critical of the Cardinal front office on this matter. We are one of the few teams who have the intelligence and resources to put a winner on the field every year. However, we must acknowledge that the recent Cub revolution does change the equation and we must adapt. I even remember a few posters on this board suggesting we should punt and do a rebuild last year.
My beef is with the teams who make their fans endure a much longer and more painful rebuild than necessary because they refused to make the tough decisions on the front end of the downward cycle.
gscottar
Pads, you pulled comments from two different posts that really aren’t related.
I never stated that the Cards had pandered nor do they have any reason to.
I’m not sure what your point is regarding the other six teams mentioned. Yes, they kept going for it when they shouldn’t have.
14NyquisT responded to your six teams post with the post about the Cardinals pandering to fans. I was responding to him and agreeing with you.
With respect to the Jays, here are my thoughts:
1. With respect to trading Donaldson, if they trade him right now, they are going to want more than the equivalent of a 2nd & 5th round comp pick, plus they are going to want a player or players who can immediately help them
2. There is typically a trade deadline premium. They can probably do better by winning more games the first four months and holding Donaldson until the deadline, then trading him at the deadline. If you get 4 months of production AND a most likely a better return, why not wait?
3. The front office has indicated they want to trade from their relief corps for position players. I am guessing they see what kind of returns they can get before they wave the white flag.The Blue Jays want to be competitive in 2018. They are not trying to rebuild. If the Cardinals, or any other organization, can propose a trade for Donaldson that would make the Blue Jays better this year, I get the feeling that they would make that trade. Who knows what the lueIMO, Gyorko, Baker, and Flaherty would make them better. In fact, I think that would be too much of an overpay. I think we would needto find a way to work Osuna in on that deal. Also, I would not trade Flaherty unless an extension for Donaldson could be worked out first.
I agree, I think the only way you are getting Donaldson for a year is a drastic overpay in terms of prospects/players.
Are we one person away from being WS contenders?
And the bigger problem is that we have few if any longterm guys in the minors, outside of pitchers, that are going to come up and get slotted into one of the fielding positions for years to come…
When the Jays are 15 games out in mid-July they will make Donaldson available. How much would you give up to have him for two months?
Impossible to answer without an assumption as to how far out will the Cards be in mid-July. (This year, they were 6 1/2 games back, in third place, but fell into fourth on the 19th.)
In other words, not doing something now may mean the trade deadline would be too late.
The Jays can be 15 games out and still competing for the 2nd wild card, which is what the Cardinals, as currently constructed, will likely be competing for…
And if the 2018 Cards are hanging in there for a wild card like in 2017, it would seem highly unlikely that they would absorb the cost of acquiring a difference-maker like Donaldson at the deadline for just two months. Instead, they would probably do just enough to remain in virtual contention and not lose the fan base, adding a set up reliever or the like. At least that is what recent actions suggest.
From Morosi:
Source: #STLCards remain involved in pursuit of Eric Hosmer, among other options to upgrade lineup. Cardinals also interested in third basemen, including Josh Donaldson in trade. Matt Carpenter’s versatility means Cardinals could add a 1B as easily as a 3B.
Now Morosi backs off.
#BlueJays not currently engaged in active trade talks involving Josh Donaldson, source says.
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