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MLB’s sign-stealing controversy broadens: Sources say the Red Sox used video replay room illegally in 2018. Story with @EvanDrellich. https://t.co/C90yxUH2jS
— Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) January 7, 2020
Astros news. Good they are going to get this announced before spring training.
Discipline against the Houston Astros for using technology to cheat is likely to come within the next two weeks, sources familiar with the situation tell ESPN, and those in the crosshairs expect it to be harsh. Long suspensions are likely. News at ESPN: https://t.co/wYSUhGSdvB
— Jeff Passan (@JeffPassan) January 7, 2020
Worth noting: Players are not being targeted for discipline. Front-office and on-field personnel, who were read into league-issued memos clearly stating they would be held accountable for tech-based cheating, are. That includes Red Sox manager Alex Cora: https://t.co/wYSUhGSdvB
— Jeff Passan (@JeffPassan) January 7, 2020
How can the players’ action be separated from the illegal theft? Isn’t that like receiving stolen goods?
I understand that if players steal signs themselves it’s not illegal to use that information.
Non-uniformed personnel can steal all the signs they want but it’s useless information if not used by the players.
The players didn’t rob the bank. They just spent the money?
Very logical, CIF. The problem is establishing proof of guilt. To use your vernacular, how can it be proven which players spent the money? It would be unfair to assume all players are guilty without proof.
My guess is that via the interviews, some individuals fessed up, but probably not players. If a player said he didn’t participate, unless a teammate or coach fingers him, there is likely no concrete evidence against him.
Yes I know it’s an impossible dilemma. I was just thinking of that tub-thumping business in the video that was going around and trying to imagine a player saying to himself: Uh oh, fastball coming. But I’m not going to use that information.
Another thought only tangentially related. It just goes to show you how tough it is to hit in the major leagues. Even when they knew what was coming, they still were out six or seven of 10 times.
So what penalties will be handed down? Suspensions, fines, and possible loss of draft picks?
All of the above.
Lunhow, Hinch, Cora, and maybe others are going to get slammed.
Astros will lose draft picks.
Interesting to see what happens to the Red Sox.
It will be fitting to see the Astros lose some picks and for some of the front office guys get their comeuppance.
gscottar wrote:
Lunhow, Hinch, Cora, and maybe others are going to get slammed.
Reminds me of the original Star Trek. The Enterprise comes upon a dangerous planet. Kirk decides to beam down a four-person search party. He names Spock, Sulu and Ensign Smith to join him. You know right away which one of them isn’t coming back. Maybe in this case, the whole search party takes a hit!
The former Marlins president reminds us why he is the former Marlins president…
In his view of the world, the better cheaters get caught…
Red Sox and Astros cheated? Of course they did! We all tried. They were just better at it.
What I'm most interested in is who gets punished and for how long: pic.twitter.com/dPrBxkLGVb
— David P. Samson (@DavidPSamson) January 7, 2020
Cora’s future is not looking so bright, as the common thread in both cases, it appears…
Rob Manfred on Sept. 15, 2017 regarding the investigation into Boston's illicit use of an Apple Watch: "I have received absolute assurances from the Red Sox that there will be no future violations of this type."
This undoubtedly will factor into any potential discipline for Sox.
— Jeff Passan (@JeffPassan) January 7, 2020
Maybe Cora is not the guy who made the promise, or maybe he had his fingers crossed when he did.
How widespread is this really, on an institutional level? As they say, if you’re not cheating, you’re not trying. Who here attends Cards’ games regularly and do you hear bangs or whistles frequently in the bottom halves of innings?
“How widespread is this really, on an institutional level? As they say, if you’re not cheating, you’re not trying.”
That’s what “they” say, alright. Whenever the “they” is question is a liar, thief, or cheat of some stripe.
Chris Correa was banned for life. Atlanta Braves GM John Coppollela was banned for life. So multiple precedents are already in place.
Whomever within the Astros organization (and Red Sox) was highest up in issuing the mandate for, or explicitly approving these illegal/unethical actions should be banned for life — not merely suspended.
The Astros or Red Sox cannot be permitted to become the New England Patriots of major league baseball, i.e., the team that gets a slap on the wrist and then proceeds to keep cheating over and over and over and over, winning half-fraudulent titles in the process.
The hammer needs to come down now. Swift, heavy, permanent. That’s the only sufficient curative.
Maybe the Dodgers should ask for those 2017 and 2018 world series trophies since they “lost” to a couple of cheaters.
Interesting defenses of Dodgers. But 1 thing Kasten didn’t mention: Dodgers lost 2 straight World Series to teams that are being investigated for alleged cheating https://t.co/aoZLYEcxnP
— Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) January 7, 2020
It raises an interesting question. In college sports, championships have been vacated due to cheating. Is anyone aware of this occurring in professional sports?
Would it stand up? Player bonuses forfeited? Legal challenges? etc…
I’d like to think MLB would go hard and institute something severe like that Brian.
How does it work in NCAA though? is the “losing” team awarded the championship or is it just considered that there is NO winner that year?
I think the Dodgers have a valid grievance if BOS and HOU are found to be guilty, as much as i dislike them
How does it work in NCAA though? is the “losing” team awarded the championship or is it just considered that there is NO winner that year?
Those titles are just vacated and listed as no winner for that season. See Louisville men’s basketball for the 2012-13 where they won the 2013 NCAA Championship but was forced to vacate after they found to have several major recruiting violations.
Brian, cycling and Olympic sports offer a parallel. Lance Armstrong was stripped of seven TDF titles, but they weren’t awarded to anyone else due to a larger cloud of suspicion. Other years when riders (Landis and Contador) were stripped of titles due to doping, the runners-up were awarded the titles.
Jim Thorpe won the decathlon and pentathlon gold medals at the 1912 Olympic Games. He was later stripped of the medals due to playing professional baseball, so the gold medals were awarded to the runners-up. Seventy years later, the gold medals were reinstated to Thorpe — so you have two gold medal recipients in both events for 1912.
On a less serious note and using reverse logic, should the Reds be stripped of the 1919 World Series title because their opponent cheated against themselves? And for that matter, can the Cards have 1985 reconsidered, haha?
Thanks, Euro. Good cycling and track examples, but those were individual titles, not team awards. The cheating was also much more definitive and impactful to the end result. Armstrong doped and likely would not have won without that help. The Astros won the World Series with good pitching (not affected), good defense (not affected) and good hitting (partially affected, but unclear who and how much).
Armstrong doped and likely would not have won without that help.
Maybe true, but everyone was doping during Armstrong’s reign.
https://www.businessinsider.com/lance-armstrong-doping-tour-de-france-2015-1
Allegations and insinuations are different than suspensions and titles forfeited. I honestly am out of my element talking about doping in cycling and it isn’t relevant to the Astros, anyway. But, yes, when someone is caught, a common defense is that “everyone else is doing it, too”. It never matters, though.
“But, yes, when someone is caught, a common defense is that ‘everyone else is doing it, too.’ It never matters, though.”
The “everyone else is doing it” is one of the few statements that’s always a lie. But it is the World Champion Rationalization. Undefeated, never even been knocked down. It’s Marciano, Mosconi, and Bob Mathias rolled into one.
Cycling was dirty, thanks to people like Armstrong. Baseball was dirty, thanks to McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, et. al. And the Chicago cops were dirty during the days of Capone.
But not all ChiTown cops were dirty. Not all cyclists were injecting. And certainly not all baseball players chose the path of least resistance during the so-called “steroid era.”
I don’t mind beatin’ a dead horse so I’ll say it again. If Rob Manfred is at all serious about stopping electronic cheating in baseball — or at least containing it as much as is humanly possible — then lifetime banishment for the highest-up individual implicated within both the Astros and Red Sox is the sole course of action. Not just draft picks or fines or suspensions or symbolic vacated titles. Those are necessary, too, but not sufficient.
Permanent expulsion. Separate the head from the rest of the snake.
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