Houston Astros (and Red Sox) Stealing Signs

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  • #114356
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Uh oh. Folks are going to start dissecting video, listening for trash can thumping…

    Then again, does anyone really suspect the 2019 Cards offense knew what was coming? 😉

    #114357
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    Maybe they had the exact opposite signs so they all thought the fastballs were gonna be breaking balls and vice versa. That would explain a lot…

    #114358
    Avatargscottar
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    If the Cardinals hitters were stealing signs they were doing a very poor job of it….:o)

    Seriously, I hope the Astros get pummeled. They deserve it.

    #114361
    Avatarmudville
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    As I understand it, what Correa did was steal the Astros intellectual property. He did not steal their passwords. In fact, there could be an argument somewhere that the passwords actually belonged to the Cardinals. As far as Correa’s culpability, I think that’s undeniable. On the other hand, one might argue that ‘turnabout is fair play’, while another might say ‘two wrongs don’t make a right’. The main point that I wanted to say was that, IMHO, the Astros screwed up by not changing their passwords, and that they need to have some accountability for that. Also, I think it’s absurd that Correa should be banned from MLB for life. I hope he writes a book and sells the movie rights to it. And if he does, I hope the book/movie reflects the accountability on both sides of this issue. We may never know how much others in the Cardinals organization knew about what was going on. But we do know that Correa stood up an took his medicine, and he did not try to drag others down with him whether those others did something wrong, or not.

    #114363
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Correa was banned from MLB for life for not cooperating with MLB’s investigation, not that his crimes were not significant enough. At that point, he had already been sentenced, so he had no bargaining position.

    Realistically, what MLB team would hire him post-prison, anyway? In other words, he had little to nothing to gain in cooperating at that point.

    I could see your idea of a movie – especially if he picks up his career in another field and becomes successful – then there would be a happy ending.

    #114364
    Euro DandyEuro Dandy
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    Maybe they had the exact opposite signs so they all thought the fastballs were gonna be breaking balls and vice versa. That would explain a lot…

    Ha, that might be it, but you are probably giving them too much credit. 😉

    This reminds me of the opposite side of the coin — the 1970s Pirates Lumber Company. I remember some pitcher of the day had a humorous quote about them. He said some teams were good fastball hitters, so they would say, “Oh goody, here comes a fastball.” Other teams were good breaking ball hitters and would say, “Oh goody, here comes a curve ball.” The Pirates simply said, “Oh goody, here comes a baseball.” The 2019 Cards were the antithesis of the Lumber Company.

    #114369
    AvatarBob Reed
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    New England Patriots: Unethical and unsportsmanlike.
    Houston Astros: Unethical and unsportsmanlike.
    Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, McGwire, Big Papi, Manny Ramirez: Unethical, unsportsmanlike, and illegal.

    Public opinions.
    Patriots: Best pro football dynasty ever, best head coach in NFL history.
    Astros: Cheating jerks who should be punished as harshly as possible.
    Steroid boys: Roaring successes. Let’s bestow upon them the highest possible honor in their sport.

    Makes for a fascinating study in psychology — or abnormal psychology as the case may be.

    #114383
    AvatarCariocaCardinal
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    Brian, when you use the term “the organization” or “the Cards” I think it is fair to assume you are implying that a decision was made at the Mo/Girsh/DeWitt level particularly when you specifically invoke DeWitt’s name. For a decision to be made it would seem logical that they were aware of what happened. If that is not the case do you really feel it is correct to say the organization made the decision?

    #114386
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
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    Then again, does anyone really suspect the 2019 Cards offense knew what was coming? 😉

    If anyone knew they didn’t share it with the rest of the team, especially Harrison Bader.

    #114387
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
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    This is how the Astros were “allegedly” relaying the sign stealing during the 2017 World Series when the crowd noise would have been too loud to use a banging sound:

    #114388
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
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    #114392
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    CC, I strive to be accurate. I’ve written a lot about this. Any assumptions you make are your own. DeWitt as well as the Astros attorney both said the same thing – that the Cards were aware of allegations but decided not to pursue. That doesn’t mean Correa took his findings to either. The timing is unknown. Likely there were rumors, Correa or not. Many Cards employees left for Houston.

    #114396
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
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    Brian, do you have any idea who all left the Cardinals to join the Astros after Luhnow was hired away? I know Mike Elias and Sig Megdal were also hired away but I know there were more than that.

    #114398
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Back in the Scout days, I ran an article for members with the details of the ex-Cardinals who went to the Astros. Unfortunately, it may have been lost in the CBS purge. Anyway, my count was 12, 18 if you include players, and there were probably more at lower levels. Some were front office, a key scout and some uniformed personnel. They included Oz Ocampo, Dyar Miller, Brent Strom, Charlie Gonzalez, Dan Radison, Dennis Martinez, Jeff Murphy, Doug White and Jeff Albert. Most were direct. A few had an intermediate stop or were let go rather than defecting directly, but they were all ex-Cards under Luhnow with Houston.

    #114403
    Avataratripleshyofthecycle
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    New England Patriots: Unethical and unsportsmanlike.
    Houston Astros: Unethical and unsportsmanlike.
    Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, McGwire, Big Papi, Manny Ramirez: Unethical, unsportsmanlike, and illegal.

    Public opinions.
    Patriots: Best pro football dynasty ever, best head coach in NFL history.
    Astros: Cheating jerks who should be punished as harshly as possible.
    Steroid boys: Roaring successes. Let’s bestow upon them the highest possible honor in their sport.

    Makes for a fascinating study in psychology — or abnormal psychology as the case may be.

    To add another layer to the abnormal psychology – Why do the people who most strongly vilify steroid users also pretend that rampant amphetamine use in the early 80’s and before was no big deal?

    #114405
    AvatarBob Reed
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    “Why do the people who most strongly vilify steroid users also pretend that rampant amphetamine use in the early 80’s and before was no big deal?”

    I think maybe I can answer this one.

    All of the amphetamine stories I have read — like “greenies” on the clubhouse training tables — involved players like Mickey Mantle back in the days before illegal drug use in baseball was explicitly banned. (Violations of state and federal drug laws were banned in MLB by Commissioner Bowie Kuhn in April, 1971. That was MLB’s first binding drug policy.)

    Any major league ballplayers who used amphetamines after Kuhn issued his Drug Policy Memo in April, 1971, should absolutely be vilified. Because they were violating a binding drug policy.

    Any ballplayer who used “greenies” prior to Kuhn’s Drug Policy Memo was NOT violating MLB rules, and thus they get no criticism from me.

    #114406
    Avataratripleshyofthecycle
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    Is it really your understanding that amphetamine use mostly went away in 1971?

    #114409
    AvatarBob Reed
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    “Is it really your understanding that amphetamine use mostly went away in 1971?”

    It does not matter what specific percentage of players stopped using in 1971.

    What matters is that any MLB player using amphetamines after Kuhn issued his Drug Policy Memo was violating MLB rules.

    And we know that Kuhn’s Drug Policy Memo was an enforceable and binding rule governing all MLB players, because the Memo was in fact enforced a couple dozen times while Peter Ueberroth was Commissioner in the 1980’s — most notoriously around the time of the Pittsburgh Drug Trials.

    The national coverage of the illegal PED users has been third rate from the start. Just to take one glaring example, national baseball writer Dan Szymborski of Fangraphs lies to his readers about these facts on a regular basis, when he loudly, repeatedly, and falsely claims that Kuhn’s Drug Policy was meaningless until there was drug testing. Kuhn’s Policy was NOT meaningless. It was enforced again and again in the 1980’s, and a variety of disciplinary actions were appealed and upheld — some were upheld in their entirety, some were reduced, and just one was fully overturned (the rather absurd one year suspension for Fergie Jenkins).

    Any players who used “greenies” or anabolic steroids or any other illegal PED’s after April, 1971, would not get my Hall Of Fame vote. Because of this, from the HOF website:

    5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

    Integrity.
    Sportsmanship.
    Character.

    Those are three of the six yardsticks to be used, per the Hall itself. You flunk three out of six, and you don’t get my vote. That goes for anyone.

    So if Ozzie Smith or Cal Ripken, Jr. or some other star of the 1980’s admitted he used “greenies,” I’d be more than happy to sign a petition to have him removed from the Hall. Speaking of which, do you have a link to any stories, anecdotal or concrete, first hand or second, detailing “greenie” use in the 1980’s, tripleshy?

    #114410
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    Amphetamines did not change the game. Guys did not get a boost in power, speed (so to speak) or anything where they were suddenly hitting 60 homers season after season.

    So even if they were used in the ‘70s, they did not cause any discernible change in the game.

    #114411
    Avataratripleshyofthecycle
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    Bob, they were common place in baseball throughout the 90’s, and the nineties use was less than the 80’s. And the 80’s less than the 70’s. And if my elders are to be believed, the 70’s were their peak (into the early 80’s).

    Bike Mike, are you of the belief that steroids were first used by Sosa, McGwire, and Bonds?

    Edit: the game evolves very slowly. And fast jump you see in evolution are typically due to rules changes or equipment changes (even changes that aren’t announced or admitted to by MLB).

    #114413
    AvatarCariocaCardinal
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    Regardless who knew, the organization admits someone knew (to say that they logically must know who that was) yet only Correa lost his job. Doesn’t speak well for the organization or Mo/DeWitt.

    #114414
    AvatarCariocaCardinal
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    I am amazed that an astute businessman like DeWitt did not limit the number of personnel that Lunhow could take with him has a condition of letting him out of his Cardinals contract to take the Astro’s job. That is a common condition in those circumstances.

    #114415
    Avataratripleshyofthecycle
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    Carioca, my concerns aren’t as specific as yours, but I agree that there is something about that whole situation that doesn’t speak well for the organization – and never sat well with me. There was (is) a culture problem when they have guys hacking other teams.

    Lunhow has proven to be far better than Mo at putting together a baseball team, but there are some real culture issues with the Astros, as well. Lunhow’s Zero Tolerance Policy for domestic abuse right after trading for Osuna might have been the most idiotic thing I’ve heard from a GM, and that’s saying something.

    #114420
    AvatarBob Reed
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    “Bob, they (amphetamines) were common place in baseball throughout the 90’s, and the nineties use was less than the 80’s. And the 80’s less than the 70’s. And if my elders are to be believed, the 70’s were their peak (into the early 80’s).”

    Ever hear the one about the guy who gets arrested for cheating on his taxes? He goes to court and the judge asks him how he wants to plead.

    “I plead only kind of guilty, your honor”

    Kind of guilty?”

    “Yeah, I’m not really guilty, because lots of other people cheat on their taxes too.”

    #114421
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
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    I’m not sure why this thread got hijacked to include PEDs…and other things.

    Anyways, Beltran says the Astros did not use technology to steal signs in 2017. Well here’s a clip someone found of a Beltran at bat where you can here the banging. 2 bangs for changeup and 1 bang for slider and no bangs for fastball

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