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forsch31…I’m sure that you’re right when you point out that the Dodgers aren’t afraid to play the Redbirds in the post-season. I’m also entirely certain the Redbirds aren’t at all afraid to play the Dodgers.
Well bccran, Ive been a fan through many a losing season. Maybe moreso than you. Cause I prefer the old cardinal way of building a team that sometimes meant maybe a couple losing seasons but good times we’re around the bend. Now I’m ok with the new to a point but it wouldn’t hurt to go out of the box every once in a while. But I bet Mo loves back scratchers like you. Far as the cubs fan thing. I just figured since you were so happy with not winning a championship and carrying on the cardinal tradition that you might be happier with those losers in blue. I’m sure they wax poetically and gloriously about their losing over there. No apologies to cub fans offered.
How many really good bats have come out of the farm system?
Yet, I still hear a few posters touting Edman and Carlson as necessary to keep since they are great hitters. Also, Burleson is a certain multiple MVP the way some talk about him. Walker, Gorman, Yepez are also considered good hitters by many. Who is correct?
Willie – a mark or maturity is to treat people with respect.
Attack a post but not a poster. Learn from that. As as far as losing seasons, unless you go back to the late 40s and early 50s, you don’t predate me as a fan.Forsch –
Burly is slowing down considerably. I hope it’s just the long season and playing through some extreme heat.Braves pitchers last year? I would take Max Fried all day every day as a number 1, (50-22 so far?)
I don’t buy DeWitt’s comment about having to know a guy when they went hard after Stanton and Price, who he didn’t know.
The problem they have is they over pay for the Leakes, Fowlers and Matzes, (plus too many relievers to name). Like I said earlier, Mo does well in trades. Going for the mid tier FA’s, not so good. And that is me trying to be polite.
That is why Verlander was my #1 choice. Not a long contract and Mo has said he prefers a higher per year average and fewer years, (see Albert a when he left).
It almost seems like you take offense over anyone saying any Cardinal isn’t great. We all want them to do well, but can see the need to improve. I want Flaherty to be the ace he has shown glimpses of, but he is injured so often, I have doubts. Waino is amazing, and still a solid 2. Mikolas, again a solid 2. We just don’t have that guy the other team is scared of every time he pitches.
I agree with you C4ever. The Cardinals spend enough money. They just don’t spend it wisely often enough, especially in free agency. They waste it on too many average players.
Verlander would be my top choice also, for the same reasons.
How many big time free agents have the Cardinals ever signed? Was Fowler big time? Was Leake big time? Was Holland big time? Was Miller big time? Was Cecil big time? Was Matz big time? Stanton and Price? Only conjecture. Rumors.
And as far as Bill DeWitt’s comments about wanting to get to know a player? He’s said that publicly – more than once, Card4Ever.By the way, Flaherty pitched last night. Went 3 innings, gave up two hits and no runs, struck out 4, and walked 1.
Just because the Cardinals don’t sign “big time” free agents, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t. And no one here seems to be advocating for signing the big time free agents that are in their prime years. I don’t think anyone thinks the Cardinals need to dive into Gerrit Cole or Corey Seager pools for negotiating. The discussion here is primarily centered around the Cardinals excepting they need to augment the talent they have developed or acquired with some intelligent, low-risk gambles.
If free agency started tomorrow, I don’t think anyone here would expect the Cardinals to go after Aaron Judge or Carlos Correa. The years and money on a contract like that would significantly impact their roster flexibility in the future. What’s being discussed here is either going after older players that require short-term deals, either on an extremely high end (Verlander, deGrom) or guys trying to reclaim their careers like we saw with Quintana with Pittsburgh or Cueto with the White Sox.
Gscottar is exactly right on the Cardinals money situation. They spend plenty, they just haven’t spent it wisely. Part of that is they are trying to build a roster around their home grown talent, which is great. But, they end up signing guys who either eat up too much of their budget or end up blocking playing time for younger guys that makes it hard to properly evaluate. Look at the Fowler contract. They kept running him out there until injuries took effect because he made too much to bench. Meanwhile, this logjam of outfielders built in Triple A and the Cardinals didn’t know what to do with them and ended up losing Adolis Garcia for nothing and traded Arozarena in a deal that has ultimately been a loss to the Cardinals. What happened with Garcia and Arozarena weren’t crippling mistakes, but still reflect a poor use of resources by the organization, which just compiles to mistake created by targeting Dexter Flower and signing him to a five-year deal. They would have been just as good signing a guy like Carlos Gomez that year to a one-year deal and freeing up their money and roster to future moves. Basically, unless a guy is a difference-maker, the Cardinals probably need to avoid locking anyone up beyond three-years.
Never and for eterninty will I be able to understand why the Redbirds, who are normally reasonably well grounded insofar as calculating the net bottom line, could have imagined that a 5 year attachment with Dexter Fowler for that amount of money was a good idea. The instant it became a reality, I was convinced that the entire FO had taken to the bottle.
The Cards have made moves for big time players. They just choose to do it by trade. It’s
more comfortable for them than competitively bidding against big budget, big market teams in the FA market.The Fowler deal will forever be associated with Mozeliak’s legacy and tenure with the Cardinals. One of the major FO disasters of the 20210s in the major leagues. That $$ went down the drain and blocked the advancing OF prospects for years. Tack on the Ortiz deal and we are still recovering.
The problem with cordoning yourself off to only trade for big name guys is that you are then trading potential big league players to do so. As we have seen, those players can and do go off and become good players that we could use. We could all name big $$ free agent busts, and we could all name big $$ free agent successes. Heck, even a contract like Patrick Corbin, which looks bad now, resulted in a World Series title for Washington. Would you take a couple seasons of dead weight to win a title?
I feel like this argument is coming from two sides. One side (which is really just one person) says, “The Cards have always done it this way and they’ve had good success, so that’s the only way to ever think about it.” The other side says, “We understand that the Cards have a formula but maybe, just maybe…the formula could be tweaked and the results could be even better.”
That’s too much of an immature stance.
Willie – a mark or maturity is to treat people with respect.
Attack a post but not a poster. Learn from that.
@bccran – you are the biggest offender on here about not treating people with respect. Perhaps you can follow your own advice for others?Insofar as FA’s, precisely what sort of control to the Cardinals have regarding Monte until he becomes eligible for to file for free agency in ’24? Also, does anyone think the Cardinals will put forth a reasonably conserted effort to sign Quintana? He’s ‘only’ being paid $2M this season.
Montgomery will be arbitration eligible for the final time in 2023. His 2022 salary was $6M so I am guessing his 2023 salary will be in the $8M to $10M range.
I hope the Cardinals will try to bring Quintana back next year. Maybe a one year $5M deal?
As noted, Montgomery was arbitration eligible both this year and the year prior. He and the Yankees settled pre-hearing both times. 2023 will be his third and final arb year before free agency.
gscottar…Thank you sir! So, that means barring a trade, he’ll definitely be back as a Cardinal in ’23, right? I was also thinking that the Redbirds, depending on his performance in his next 3 or 4 turns, may offer up on Quintana before season’s end. The sort of money and time period you mentioned was in line with my thoughts.
1TD…..Yes, Montgomery will be back with the Cards next year barring something unforeseen. Hopefully Q will be as well. We need all of the quality healthy starters we can get.
I don’t see Quintana as coming back on a cheap deal…if he finishes strong, he will likely get a couple years. I’d think he’ll get figures either way. My preference in that case would be to pass, as the bust rate is pretty high on the one year renaissance gang.
Well, that’s good to know. I kind of figured as much, but I’m no expert on paperwork and my eyes have trouble reading the fine print…Heck, some of this stuff can be as confusing as what’s printed on a health plan. It’s why I delegate my supervisor/wife to mail in payment of the monthly bills. She affixes the stamps and I affix the checks…
25, I think your post sums up this whole thread precisely. It’s time for a change in the formula.
I believe the Cardinals should sign an elite level free agent once every 7-10 years. Even then, it should be a reasonable term in an area of need. 10 year deals are crazy since so much can change in that period of time. I have no problem with 5-7 year deals to an elite level free agent but it’s tough to convince a player under the age of 30 to agree to that. I really like the idea of a Verlander, DeGrom, Scherzer type of pitcher. Someone that could be signed for 2-5 years. I like Rodon but I’m concerned he will want 8-10 years.
If you want to go after guys who are older, look at the deals made for Beltran and Berkman. Then you’d be cookin’ – maybe 2 or 3 years. They were forced to stretch it t 4 with Matz to get the deal done.
The Cards are watching the development of guys like Liberatore, Thompson, Graceffo, McGreevey, Hence, etc. Closely.
Oh, and LACardFan – you’re totally wrong. Better to just ignore someone you don’t care for. That’s for Willy too.
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