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Wainwright and Quintana are not currently signed for 2023 and will be free agents. Flaherty may or may not be healthy next year. Hudson has shown some inconsistency. It might be due to continued recovery from TJ surgery or it may not. That leaves Mikolas, Montgomery and Matz, who has also been hurt. The only TOR starter is potentially Flaherty.
I would love to see the Cardinals sign DeGrom, Verlander, Rodin or Kershaw. Getting a TOR pitcher like that and adding it to what we already have elevates this team to an elite status team. We could use that rotation depth and pair it with our OF depth in a trade to upgrade in some other way.
Mikolas
Montgomery
Matz
Hudson
Flaherty – he may very well be healed
Waino can be signed
Quintana can be signed
Pallante has proven effective
Woodford is probably ready
Thompson may be ready
Liberatore may be ready
Parsons may be readyThat’s 12 possibilities for a 5 man rotation.
Go after a “solid pitcher” when you have Flaherty as a possibility, Montgomery, Mikolas, Matz, Hudson, and both Waino and
Quantana who could be signed? And Pallante having performed well as a starter? Doesn’t make sense, sorry.Flaherty injured
Montgomery solid #3 type
Mikolas we got nothing from for two full years til this year, can you trust him?
Matz injured
Hudson inconsistent
Waino is 40+, and I love the guy but he’ll eventually wear out
Pallsgte, Woodford, Libby and Thompson are new enough that they could go any directionWe got burned by choosing to go light on pitching this past off-season. I would hope that Mo won’t do that again.
Mo lines up a full rotation and then makes adjustments from within and from outside as the season progresses. Most organizations do the same thing. MLB teams don’t go into a season with 7 or 8 major league experienced, qualified starters on the 26 man or at AAA. It just doesn’t work that way.
The LA Dodgers did. The San Diego Padres did. The NY Yankees did. The Houston Astros did. Coincidentally, they’re probably the four most likely teams to win the World Series. Does that mean teams can’t make in season tweaks? Of course not. Adding a higher level pitcher to the mix does nothing but boost the team.
One pitcher is nearly guaranteed to be injured or ineffective every year. An ideal rotation to me looks like:
Nola/Lopez
Montgomery
Flaherty
Mikolas
Waino/MatzHudson and Pallante to the pen
Libby and Thompson to Memphis
Woodford in the penGo into the season with six proven guys and expect someone to go down. Then your young guys have the chance to mature and step in should you need them. If Flaherty steps up with a 2019 campaign, then you have twin aces for a playoff series. Seems like a good issue to have.
Again, doesn’t work that way. Never has with the Cardinals and they have one of the very best track records in baseball over the last 20 years. Name one year when they had 7=8 proven, major league experienced starters going into a season. You can start with the 2006 and 2011 teams. By the way, how many World Championships have the Astros and Padres won? And how many have the Dodgers and Yankees won this century
with those huge payrolls?The four aforementioned teams have won 11 pennants and 4 World Series this century, including 6 pennants and 2 World Series in the last five years. You can bet on at least one, maybe two more pennants and a solid shot at another World Series this year too.
I never suggested that they needed 7-8 proven MLB pitchers but having 5-6 including one or more who is an ace is pretty much vital in today’s day and age. You can’t run the gauntlet of the regular season without really good rotation depth, and you can’t win in October without rotation quality. The Cards need to build on both this off-season…adding a true #1 would arguably do both, as would adding a very solid #3 type. The bump would then correspond to the outlay…a Nola/Lopez bumps your October cred a lot. A Clevinger gives you a better shot, but moreso gives you a boost through the 162 game schedule.
I’m certainly no expert on the subject, but it seems to me the Redbirds, with the exception of C.Carpenter (and he was risky) Berkman and Beltran, have in recent memory always fared better via the old fashioned trade as opposed to signing free agents. I’m sure there are more, but the names that landed here via the trade that instantly enter my mind are McGwire, Edmonds, Holliday, Goldschmidt and Arenado, and the list of Cardinal free agent aqusitions that tanked are so many that I don’t care to think up a single name… In any event, I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s not always good to go window shopping with a pocket full of money. I’m also sure a lot of folks agree that home grown is always the best, but it’s difficult to cultivate gold.
How did Waino, Mikolas, and Montgomery do in their last starts? Whom were they pitching against? How did Pallante do in his last start? By the way, how does the Cards payroll compare to the Dodgers? Take a look at the Dodgers rotations over the past 20+ years and please tell me why it took them all those years up until 2020 to win a World Series.
Winning a World Series is no given, even for very good teams. The 2004 and 2005 Cardinals fell short despite being superb, and the 2006 team limped in and then won it all. The 2011 Cards were good, but probably not as good as the 2013-15 teams that didn’t win. You can’t guarantee a title.
What you can do is put yourself in position. The teams mentioned have spent more than St Louis, but it’s definitely arguable that Dewitt doesn’t stretch the budget in the least and could easily afford to do so. What they’ve done well the last five years is position themselves to cover the inevitable injuries and ineffectiveness that come along with the game and be ready to face October.
Put it this way, which rotation would you trust to deliver a title more?
Nola
Flaherty
Montgomery
Mikolas
Waino/MatzOr
Flaherty
Mikolas
Matz
Hudson
Waino/Woodford/PallanteFor me, it’s not even close and it’s not like it would be impossible to achieve. The parts are available and probably wouldn’t harm the offense much, with a slight defensive decline. Even someone like Clevinger will be available for pure money this winter.
bccran…And even Quintana. He’s not been too shabby. Dodgers? They move their money with forklifts and I’m not even sure I count the ’20 WS. In short, I agree that money can’t always buy love. When I think of Redbird free agent pitcher aquisitions, the only ones I can come up with that brought me genuine happiness are Chris Carpenter and the guy who took his turn yesterday. Then I think of Cecil, Leake, Holland, Miller and the best of all, Kip Wells…
If you have a full rotation under contract, how do you budget piling starters on top of starters?
Does being under contract guarantee that the pitcher will be available opening day? That would be nice!
You had better have more than five MLB caliber starters ready before April 1. Sure we have guys in the minors that “might” step up. But if you look at the last two seasons most of them have not.
The Cardinals have quite a bit of money coming off the books this winter. They don’t have to have a payroll like the Yankees or Mets to add at least one high end starter either by trade or free agency.
Ask Brian, gscottar. It’s not that easy. You simply can’t “over stock” your rotation with experienced major league starters on the chance that some will go down. You replace the best you can on the fly. Both internally and externally.
Ask Brian, gscottar. It’s not that easy. You simply can’t “over stock” your rotation with experienced major league starters on the chance that some will go down. You replace the best you can on the fly, from both internal and external sources.
Deep down in my gut I have this feeling that Flaherty will not be a major factor in the Cardinals’ immediate future, this year or 2023. I’ve had that feeling all year. On the other hand, perhaps it’s just constipation.
In any case, I say we should acquire a top drawer starter, if we can do so without giving away the store, and a solid catcher, unless there is some secret knowledge about Herrera I’m unaware of.
Rah Cardinals!
Well apparently bccran you must have time to waste, you are still on here. Funny how you told gscottar to move on in the Woodford thread if he didn’t like the thread but somehow you can’t abide by your own standards. Not surprising at all.
Bassitt was my first choice of the OAK pitchers, but he went off the board quickly. Hope he makes it to free agency this winter.
You jumping in out of the blue to criticize another poster, willie? You know, there’s a term for that.
Bcran, if I am not mistaken, Brian has also stated that the Cardinals have not done enough the last two years to have enough pitching for the early parts of the season.
I don’t speak for him though so he can correct me if I remembered wrong.
Brian explained once how you can’t pile starters on top of starters at the beginning of the season. No place to put all of them. Some won’t come here unless they’re guaranteed a slot in the rotation. They won’t accept a potential bullpen role or a approve a trip to AAA.
I think flaherty is done so there is one to replace. Matz will be given another shot. I don’t think waino will come back or hope not anyway. Got to know when to walk away. Hudson is iffy at best. So you have Montgomery, mikolas as guarantees with Hudson and pallante as possible starters. Again I’m not sold on Hudson as I was before his injury. If they use pallante, Hudson may slide to bullpen or maybe Woodford is there but I’m not sure they know their plans for Woodford. Signing quintana could be an option if the price isn’t too high and he finishes strong. So far I’m not sold on guys on the farm totally anyway. We will see how serious they are about trying to win a championship if they dont get it done this year.
Bccran, I didn’t jump on you. I used your own words and standard to you. Clear for everyone to see your double standard. I’m done for now, best to let others have a nice conversation.
No, willie, you’re calling out another poster and getting personal. Let’s just talk baseball, okay?
Summary –
1.) A Central Division GM told me he thinks Flaherty will win a Cy Young some day. He now on a rehab assignment. There’s a long way to go before we can draw any conclusion about him re 2023. He very well could be fine.
2.) Here are Hudson’s ERAs –
2018 – 2.63
2019 – 3.35
2020 – 2.77
2021 – 2.08
2022 – 4.17Sometimes it’s the year after the year after TJ that a pitcher is recovered enough to come back strong.
3.) Monty has taken to the Cardinals and is pitching like a #2-#3.
4.) Mikolas when he first came here – 18-4, 2.83 ERA.
He has an ERA of 3.44 right now, even after that horrible game in Colorado. He’s pitching great again this year.5.) Matz is a proven major leaguer who was 14-7 last year in the rugged AL East. No reason he can’t return to that.
6.) Waino wasn’t supposed to be that good this year because of age. He had a 3.15 ERA in 2020, 3.05 ERA in 2021, and a 3.27 ERA this season. I wouldn’t bet against this crafty ageless wonder in 2023. He doesn’t rely on a fastball for success. Wilhelm was still pitching when he was 49.
The only pitcher that I would sign is an ace. We have enough other pitchers. We need an ace. If we could count on Flaherty, he would qualify. However, as much as he has been injured with arm injuries, counting on him is a prelude to failure. I know the chances of signing an ace are less than 5% but that is what I think they need to do.
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