2020 Cardinals line-up & rotation

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  • #118438
    Avatarbccran
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    Amazing they haven’t been able to
    go all the way with some of the starting pitching they’ve had.

    #118440
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Again, the Dodgers were over the CBT last year and have declared they will go over again this year, even though they are well below currently. Here in early January, they are telling the world they have further plans. Even if they are not signing top free agents, their recent history of big in-season trades made by Friedman is considerable. That is not the Cardinals way. (I was going to write “MO”, but decided that would be confusing!)

    I submit that the Dodgers are still spending, but are doing so more responsibly. In today’s world, what front office would say, “We are building our team to win the World Series”? Especially one that hasn’t done it in over 30 years. That would be setting themselves up for almost certain failure.

    #118441
    Avatargscottar
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    Well it is hard to go from $300M to $187M in one year. He has been gradually bringing it down every year. I think their payroll has gone down almost every year he has been in charge.

    I think Theo Epstein basically has said in the last few years that they are building a team to win the world series although I would have to search to find the exact quotes but I think Friedman is a much better executive than Epstein.

    I bring all of this up as a compliment to Mo actually. Being compared to Friedman should be taken as a very high complement indeed.

    #118444
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Friedman is rightfully well respected, but how many World Series titles does he have in his entire career? I will take the winner.

    #118445
    Avatargscottar
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    How many World Series titles does Friedman have in his entire career? I will take the winner.

    I must not have done a good job of explaining why I made the analogy. It was not a slight towards Mo. I was making the point that the Cardinals and Dodgers operate in very much a similar way. It wasn’t meant to devolve into a Mo vs. Friedman debate but defensiveness seems to prevail in these threads.

    People lazily like to claim that “the Dodgers are only good because all they do is write checks”. My point is that is wrong. What they actually do is similar to the Cardinals, which is a complement. Why can’t it just be taken that way?

    #118446
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    One might say that the Dodgers started copying the model that the Cards became successful at implementing. I don’t think that’s too defensive a stance, although it isn’t something that can necessarily be proven either.

    #118451
    Avatarbccran
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    Looking back, the Cards seem to average every year 5 homegrown players and 3 outsiders in their 8 man starting lineup. That has been helped by guys like Molina, Pujols, Carpenter, etc. having long tenures. This coming season, the only outsiders set in the starting 8 are Goldy and Dexter.
    I still think they are going to re-sign Ozuna or trade for another bat.

    #118462
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    gscottar, who is being defensive? I just don’t see the Dodgers the same as you or all that similarly to the Cardinals, though they are obviously a good organization. We both shared our viewpoints civilly. A forum would be a very boring place if everyone agrees with everything posted. I respect your POV or I would not engage you.

    #118471
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Was thinking more about this, but on a tangent. The Dodgers haven’t won it all despite making some big July short-term trades in recent years. I wonder if anyone has studied how well the big midseason trades of an impending free agent turned out in the context of winning the World Series or even improving the new team’s play measurably? It would be some work if even possible.

    We just assume the story line that any team will get better with another better player is going to occur. But what if the player doesn’t fit in with his new teammates, or if he shows bad behavior on (Machado) or off the field (Chapman)? What about the guy who lost his starting job as a result of the trade and his teammates loyal to him vs. a guy who might be perceived as a hired gun?

    Fans seem to default to a view that a team’s ownership/front office is not trying unless they make a big addition. Yet, I think about the Cubs bringing in Castellanos last summer while the Cards did nothing.

    #118473
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    I was thinking about the last time the Cards really made a big move like that. After getting Holliday in 2009, they won 91 games and took the division (sound familiar?), but were swept out of the first round. He re-signed that winter but the 2010 team missed the playoffs entirely, but the third year, they won it all. Of course any team is much more than one player, making any of these comparisons shaky. I think I will stop thinking and get back to work…

    #118523
    Avatargscottar
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    gscottar, who is being defensive? I just don’t see the Dodgers the same as you or all that similarly to the Cardinals, though they are obviously a good organization. We both shared our viewpoints civilly. A forum would be a very boring place if everyone agrees with everything posted. I respect your POV or I would not engage you.

    I respect your POV also, very much in fact.

    I don’t mind disagreeing on this board if I know what we are disagreeing about. It just seemed to me that you thought I was trying to compare who the better front office executive was, Mo or Friedman. That wasn’t my intent. I was trying to point out how the the two organizations are more similar than most would realize, at least in my opinion.

    #118524
    Avatargscottar
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    That it is an interesting point regarding deadline moves. I am probably one of those who believe that making a move usually gives you a better chance of winning although the Cardinals proved me wrong on that last year.

    That would be a massive undertaking to go back and research all of the trade deadline moves to see what impact they had. I am sure some have worked and some haven’t.

    Would the Cubs have won the world series in 2016 without Chapman? Well he couldn’t close out Game 7 but he had a positive impact overall I think.

    Would the Astros have won the world series in 2017 without Verlander? We can’t say with 100% certainty but he obviously helped.

    As for Castellanos last year, he was terrific after coming over to the Cubs. It certainly wasn’t his fault they didn’t make the playoffs.

    I think a deadline trade can be viewed successfully even if that team doesn’t win the world series. Winning a world series is a high bar to set to determine if a team is successful or not but the Dodgers and Yankees panic when they go on too long of a drought.

    As time goes by I am becoming more of a believer of build the best team you can to win the division then see what happens because a lot of times winning the world series is nothing more than who happens to be hot at the right time. Going into last year’s postseason not many people predicted the Nationals would win it all.

    #119157
    AvatarOquendo11
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    For me, Martinez’s value as a starter is too high to put him in the bullpen (even as the closer) if he is healthy and conditioned to pitch a starters work load.

    So in the optimistic scenario where all the pitchers are healthy and effective in Spring Training, I would like to see Martinez and Kim as STL starters and (unfortunately for him) Hudson starting in AAA, until a need presented.

    I’d have Hensley, Miller, and Brebia compete to be the 2020 closer (I don’t count on Hicks being the closer until 2021 or the very end of 2020 at the earliest.)

    If healthy and effective, I would like to see Reyes piggy back for two innings after the starter least likely to pitch seven innings (Kim?).

    #119162
    Avatargscottar
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    Oquendo, you are not the first person I have heard mention that idea about Hudson. It kind of baffles me actually. I know several people who aren’t high on him at all. Silly me I thought he was one of our better starters last year. I guess some folks are worried about his peripherals. He would be in my rotation no matter who we add.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Avatargscottar.
    #119164
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    Hudson is a rotation guy in St. Louis period.

    #119171
    AvatarOquendo11
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    I like Hudson. I like him more than many other fans because I value groundball pitchers more than many other fans who (I feel) put too much value in swing and miss pichers.

    I just don’t think it is reasonable to expect to have six healthy and effective starters for very long. So I hide Hudson in AAA, ready to fill in when undoubtedly he will be needed.

    #119235
    Avatargscottar
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    I don’t think we have five starters better than Hudson. He needs to be in the St. Louis rotation.

    #119242
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    I don’t think we have five starters better than Hudson. He needs to be in the St. Louis rotation.

    Agreed. I like Hudson to lower his walk rate this year, which along with a little better HR luck and maybe a higher BABIP should result in a mid 3s ERA. Flaherty and Carlos (if he’s healthy and starting) are the only guys I think top that.

    #119304
    AvatarCardsFanInChiTown
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    Just to play the devils advocate, Hudson’s ERA and wins were great, but all the other numbers suggest otherwise. If they could sell high and put Helsley/Ponce/Gomber/Reyes/Woodford etc in his spot I’d be glad to see that.

    The Cards have an ace, Maybe a 3 with Mikolas and 5-8 #4 starters at this point. Helsley is one I’d love to watch either sink or swim.

    #119306
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    I wonder in the history of MLB if a 16-game winner or better with 2.0 WAR or better and a 3.35 ERA or lower one season, who was healthy, couldn’t make the team the very next spring and was sent down to Triple-A. It would have to be a bizarre case, I would think.

    #119308
    AvatarMinuteman3
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    I don’t support sending Hudson down or trading him. His main problem seems to be that he is spastic as all get out at times. Mainly it seems to be the first inning where he can’t hit the broad side of a barn but as soon as he walks a few and gets a few runs behind he wakes up and becomes that old ground ball pitcher we want to see. To be honest I am not confident when he is the starter but he does tend to prove me wrong. Adam Wainwright is the same.

    #119311
    Avatarbccran
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    The goal of any playoff oriented organization should be to win their division, not just qualify. Those 1 and done wild card games are brutal.

    #119322
    Avatargscottar
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    I wonder in the history of MLB if a 16-game winner or better with 2.0 WAR or better and a 3.35 ERA or lower one season, who was healthy, couldn’t make the team the very next spring and was sent down to Triple-A. It would have to be a bizarre case, I would think.

    It would be on of the most bizarre cases of all time. I think some folks are getting carried away with the peripherals on Hudson. He gets the job done. I view him as a workhorse, a bulldog. Someone in the mold of Matt Morris or Danny Cox or Lance Lynn. He is a solid number 3 starter and should never see Memphis again unless it is a rehab assignment.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Avatargscottar.
    #119332
    AvatarCardsFanInChiTown
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    To clarify my comment, if he’s with the Cardinals, he’s slotting in behind Miles 100%. I was just saying I don’t think he’s as good as his baseball card (Wins, ERA) suggests. If they could trade him at an extremely high value for someone who improves the team immediately, then I would at least entertain it.

    #119336
    jj-cf-stljj-cf-stl
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    I see him as the stl version of Jeff Suppan, a solid SP3.

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