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OK, so you want to give Molina two years and if he asks as part of the negotiation if he will play every day during that time, you want the Cardinals to be dishonest about it? An unhappy Yadi would not be a good thing to have on a roster.
It’s not dishonest to say that he’ll play as often as his level of play demands it. That’s exactly how it works on most every team, and it’s actually a far more truthful way of negotiating than blowing smoke and promising things that teams know they cannot and should not deliver on. Yadi knows that he’d play plenty of time, and the team can explore whatever options they need to if there are team needs in 2022.
And I am asserting is that Molina will never accept that he does not deserve to play every day. Dealing with that whenever it occurs would be a major problem for any manager for whom he plays. That is just being real. Molina is not like any other Cardinal. He is not going to give up his right for his name to be on the lineup card every day without a fight. I would rather have that fight before he signs than avoiding the obvious problem up front and instead trying somehow to finesse it after he resigns.
(As a point of reference, remember that Scott Rolen was sat down for one playoff game and the end result was that he had to be traded. These players can be very proud and I put Molina at the top of that list.)
And I am asserting is that Molina will never accept that he does not deserve to play every day. Dealing with that whenever it occurs would be a major problem for any manager for whom he plays. That is just being real. Molina is not like any other Cardinal. He is not going to give up his right for his name to be on the lineup card every day without a fight. I would rather have that fight before he signs than avoiding the obvious problem up front and instead, trying somehow to deal with it after he resigns.
That’s fair. Still, what team out there can realistically guarantee a starting spot for him for the next 2 years? Unless he’s willing to go to a tanking team on the cheap, it just isn’t happening.
There were 11 qualified catchers based on innings caught in 2017, 10 in 2018, 10 in 2019 and 6 in 2020. This suggests that 2/3rds of MLB won’t even entertain a full time starting catcher. So wherever he goes, he pretty much will be in a time share. In 2021 he at least wouldn’t be on much of one in St Louis. That’s probably the best deal he’d get.
He is not going to give up his right for his name to be on the lineup card every day without a fight. I would rather have that fight before he signs than trying to avoid the obvious problem and deal with it after he resigns.
Why fight? Why have a distraction like an unhappy yadi? I watched “Moneyball” on MLB last night. Where is that ballsy-type guy when you need him? Why negotiate for a certain unfavorable result like the tail wagging the dog?(Schildt, in this case) IMO this has been undermining his authority since he got here. I see him as a weak manager with no snowballs. (see Fowler also)
Well, we will have to see what the other teams offer. I admit I don’t know what they would or would not do. But I do know that if I was the Cardinals, I would think very hard before guaranteeing year two. If no one else will give two, why would he leave? Again, I don’t think the respect he is looking for will come down to money. And if I have to play Molina every day in 2021 to keep him happy, I would not want to be committed to that for 2022.
Ny, do you think Shildt could sit Molina if that was against the wishes of the front office? Think about the tail and the dog in that context. We know you don’t like Shildt, but he has to satisfy his bosses and keep control of his clubhouse. Pissing off his veteran leader in Molina isn’t the way to do that. (If you doubt that, ask Mike Matheny how well saying that Molina looked tired went over…)
That’s a fair characterization. Hard to say but if he only gets 1 year offers, would he take a year with some sort of player or mutual option? It would bide some time for the Cards to see where Knizner and Herrera are after 2021 and if they have to have a tough conversation after next year to let him know he will be in a time share, then let him walk if he so wants.
My point is that we don’t have to deal with any of that anymore if we don’t give yadi what he is demanding. Easy-peasy.
My point is that we don’t have to deal with any of that anymore if we don’t give yadi what he is demanding. Easy-peasy.
And will be dealing with perhaps the worst or second worst starting catcher in the league at that point. Doesn’t sound so easy, does it?
Unless you are willing to sign Realmuto, there’s no one else on the market who can combine with Knizner (who the FO just admitted isn’t a starting caliber catcher) to make for even an average battery. It would be wise to just save the money and punt the season if you’re willing to happily have two positions be the worst in the league (C and RF).
I would like to keep Waino, but I am more than happy to see Yadi walk, IF the alternative is a disruptive Yadi on the bench at some point and/or blocking a top prospect from seeing the field. I am more than tired of seeing that last part play out.
Where did Yadi rank last season, among catchers (I know one of you have this info tucked away)? Is signing him to two years really worth having X level of production behind the plate vs what we could scratch together to replace him for one year?
I am all in favor of seeing Yadi walk if we have to do an overpay again. Let Knizer catch 5 days a week and sign a mid level veteran for the other two days, then use savings on slugging DH. Nostalgia doesn’t equate to wins.
Beopig, since this thread is about Yadi I will move my comments regarding market size to the Payroll thread.
If we aren’t going to address the offense, I don’t mind going with Knizner behind the plate. I want Molina back but he needs to be receptive to some share of the position. Also, Molina’s salary has to be a lot less than it was in 2020. He is definitely in a decline phase.
If you sign, Yadi, you’ll need to get his agreement that he will sit one day a week. If you’re going try for more time than that for Knizner, don’t sign Yadi.
Some are making big “if” assumptions that Molina would accept a lesser role when there is absolutely no evidence to support it. If it is suggested by the Cardinals, I predict he will react by feeling disrespected. I get all the logic in favor of such an idea, but I have no confidence he would buy in.
Is a lesser role sitting once a week? In 2017 he played in
136 games. In 2018 it was 123. In 2019 it was 113. And in 2020 it was 42. If he sits out 1 game a week in the regular season he would sit out 24 times, and play in 138 games. He hasn’t played in that many since 2017. So actually, because of injuries and rest, he’s been playing a lesser role for some time. What do you want him to do? Sit half the time?
That won’t happen if they’re paying him anywhere near the
$10 million including incentives some have suggested.Several of those seasons including 2020, he spent time on the IL. The issue is not that he may end up sitting due to factors out of his control. The issue is that he did not want to ever sit – and likely will not want to ahead – to the extent needed to give Knizner and Herrera a reasonable and consistent chance over the next two years. Waiting for Molina to go onto the IL would not be a good development plan for the young catchers. That is my read on the situation.
Have to disagree on the Realmuto or bust conclusion, 25. Over the last two seasons Yadi has been middle of the pack by wRC+ and DRS. I’m not using WAR because of the playing time component (replacement). There are other catchers who have been equally or more effective than Yadi, offensive and defensively, who just haven’t received the same playing time for contract and time share reasons.
This is the perfect opportunity to find a Carson Kelly, buried by someones depth chart, who just needs the playing time to prove his worth. My pick is Curt Casali, recently non-tendered, two arb years remaining. He was backup to Barnhart and had the Reds catcher of the future on his heels, a good old fashion roster crunch and the sell-off Reds passed on his arb2 1.8mil to 2.4mil salary.
As a vet on a one year, Jason Castro would make a good time share with Knizner. But what we shouldn’t do, is be gun-shy to lose Yadi because any other choice isn’t a HOF candidate. We know Yadi is declining and probably continues to. He’s middle of the road currently.
I’d prefer our catcher position be fluid this coming season, to get a good look at Knizner and whomever the FO deem as a good time-share. It’s not like we’d be locked into a 2yr contract. We’d have choices at the deadline, next offseason, etc.
jj, I get all the reasons that are put out there that we can take some scrap heap catcher, combine him with a player who couldn’t beat Matt Wieters out last year, and have the same production we’ve been getting. In fact, I see Zips projects Knizner and Heineman to be a 2.0 WAR combo next year, so the projections think highly of them too. Personally, I think that we will get to see what it’s like to see other teams run all over our pitchers with that combo and would be extremely lucky to get 0.0 WAR from them (Knizner is a -20 DRS/yr catcher in his career so far and while it’s a small sample, I think that’s probably accurate given his noted lack of defensive chops).
If it ends up that we go looking on the scrap heap, then so be it. If so, there had better be a real upgrade somewhere else.
Your last sentence is the point of moving on from Yadi, to add offense elsewhere, and “scrap heap” as our only other options at catcher is a bit dramatical.
We are currently handcuffed by expensive vet contracts we can’t wait to expire. So the solution is to re-sign another aging, declining vet to a 2yr legacy contract? When do we quit shooting ourselves in the foot?
When do we put wise up ahead of sentimental value? I already have, but I understand exactly why some can’t. And mind you, if I had ever bought a jersey with another mans name on it, it would have been Yadi’s.
I suspect many don’t realize the leadership quotient of Yadi on the field, in the dugout, and in the locker room. His fire and competitiveness is an example for all of his teammates.
How much value do the Cardinals, who understand his value better than anyone, assign to these intangibles in a new contract offer?
A lot, Brian. Or else the Cards would have already moved on and not shown the interest in re-signing him that they’re showing now. Leadership and fan continuity loyalty don’t show up in fancy sabermetrics and sophisticated analytics.
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