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Far be it from me to disagree with such an esteemed source as Bleacher Report, but according to the actual results of MLB catchers in games, Molina’s recent standing is not that lofty.
In 2019 and 2020 combined, Molina ranked 19th among MLB catchers in offensive bWAR at 1.2.
In 2019 and 2020 combined, Molina ranked 13th among MLB catchers in defensive bWAR, also at 1.2.
So currently, he is a middle of the pack catcher comparatively. His legacy value and intangibles are his main differentiators at this point.
I guess I’m one who likes legacy.
I am not opposed to legacy per se but I am more interested in winning. I would have no problem with the Cardinals giving out legacy deals as long as they didn’t impede on improving other areas of the team but when the legacy deals prevent us from affording other players I have a big problem with it.
If the Cardinals want to pay internal players more than market value because of legacy then they shouldn’t use it as an excuse to skimp on other areas. That is a cop out.
Probably been addressed somewhere earlier in this thread but..
Waino left arguably almost 40mm on the table when he inked his contract. You can argue he didnt produce to the level if you want, but thats simply a fact. Yadi got his thank you contract…Nobody was going to give him that much money in an extension.
Pay waino (I think they will) an above avg salary with a club option, and good incentives…
If yadi wants to walk, let him go. I’ve seen enough of his pujols type behavior that at this point I wouldnt care much. Yadi cares about yadi and his brand, and not much else.
“thank you contract”
A good way to say it. That 4/80mil contract is the second highest AAV ever paid to a catcher, behind only Mauer.In my opinion, the Molina legacy seems to be dwindling with our fan base, if you use TCN as a for instance.
Yadi has not been helping that stature for quite a while now… he is actually doing the opposite… Yadi being Yadi.TCN fan base may not be representative. We’re probably much more into statistics than the average fan. Little kids and youth have grown up with Yadi. In many cases, he’s their hero. One of my grandsons lives in California and has a Yadi jersey and Yadi picture on his wall (even though his dad is from KC and a big Royal fan). What am I going to tell my 13 year old grandson? That he shouldn’t look up Yadi anymore because his wRC+ has been declining for the last 3 seasons? I’m sure there are thousands and thousands of kids in the St. Louis area like my grandson. They’re little league guys probably looking forward to the fan ban being lifted so they can go cheer for Yadi and the Cardinals.
get them both signed… if Yadi wants 10mil fine…if it is a player option for another 10…sure work that out…but make it mutual and be done if you can
Waino seems like he will take the same type of deal…so go with it…
These are short deals, so what? Knizner already seems to have been passed by Herrera as heir apparent even before Yadi was a FA.
YES… don’t sign a Matt Wieters again to stand in the way of backup time, unless he will go to the minors,
Perhaps it would be GOOD to have Knizner learn how to be a backup instead of a starter, that is not the worst thing to be good at? A pairing of him and Hererra could be a very good thing too if both are good enough.
I have two jerseys of players on the team Yadi and Waino. And there is a reason for that. They are Cardinals, period. Pujols should have been one too, and we have to sit and discuss whether he will go in the Hall as a Cardinal or not…it shouldnt be a discussion…and i don’t care how he has played as he aged. Sometimes things are bigger than performance, sometimes you overpay or pay longer to keep your icons.
These are icons. And to be honest some of our most dependable players still. Yadi was NEVER supposed to have a good bat, remember? We never cared about his bat until he worked and made it pretty impressive, we cared about his defense and his calling a game, and his working with the young pitchers. He still does that better than anyone. Period. I could care less about his offense, and if we are “DEPENDING” on Yadi’s offense out of the C position for 10mil to fix our team we are losing already.
Waino, is similar, his role as mentor to the younger, not to mention he has the knack for being a BIG game pitcher or going extra, finding extra, doing more than he should. Not quantifiable, but he does it and has done it regardless of his age. He was one of our best pitchers last year too.
Get them both signed, and move on.
I’d much prefer Yadi and Waino paid a bit more to be here rather than anywhere else rather than signing Austin Romine to back up Knizner and hope then adding Mike Fiers or similar because he will come for a few million less…or worse go with kids who have even less track record at success
They both still offer on field value, and off field leadership, and fan loyalty and ticket and jersey sales, etc etc
People were saying Yadi was worthless and done before his last contract…sure it was bit more money but he played pretty well through it compared to the other catchers out there…and Waino despite being year to year and incentive driven has pitched impressively throughout
get it done, and find the best you can to fill the rest if your purse strings are too tight…
but if we let loose Yadi and Waino because we just cant afford them…that will not go over well…
Waino was paid $97.5M between 2014-18 and two of those years he barely played at all. I think one of the reasons he was willing to take incentive deals the last two years is because he felt he owed the organization back for paying him while he was injured. That is good on him, but make no mistake, he has been paid handsomely.
Yadi got a 3 yr/$60M deal for 2018-20. To me that was his legacy deal. He was overpaid once so he doesn’t need to be overpaid again.
I understand the reason why teams want to do legacy deals for their icons. My point is that if you are willingly going to pay more than market value then it isn’t fair for that overpay to hurt other areas of the team. It isn’t fair to the fans and it isn’t fair to the team as a whole.
I agree with you, gscottar, but the assumption is that the team CANNOT spend more, when we know the real answer is they WILL NOT spend more. But the end result is the same – a down payroll.
Against that backdrop, I want those who are saying to sign the two – fully knowing that as a result the 2021 offense cannot be improved as needed – to understand that you cannot have it both ways.
When the 2021 team again can’t score runs, you had better not slam the owner and front office. If you want the legacy guys to stay, then be prepared for a team much like 2020.
But, aren’t O’Neill, Bader, Thomas, and Williams finally coming into their own, Brian? And DeJong having a much better year? That’s the hope. And Yadi isn’t a whirlwind at the plate, but he’s pretty steady at making contact.
I was careful to say that in that case, the 2021 team (as in the identities of the players) would be much like 2020. How anyone projects those players to perform in the future is always a wild card, but even more so this coming year.
I get what the hope is about. Let’s see what the projections say.
Fangraphs keeps a running total of how the various teams project for the coming season by position by WAR. With the current roster, the Cards rank third in WAR in the division, eighth in the NL and 18th in MLB at 26.7 fWAR.
In other words, with a 14-team playoffs as rumored, the Cardinals would go home instead.
Brian ends the argument with his will not spend more point (If that is true). I suspect competitive baseball executives see the world in terms of making the greatest monetary gains while creating the most wins on tbe field, and these brains are emotionally connected and invested in these sacred algorithms they hate to deviate from.
If Mr. Dewitt’s emotional connection is to these successes, Brian is right; the argument ends.
If Mr. DeWitt’s greatest sense of accomplishment and purpose derives from the winning, I’m saying there’s a chance.Nigel T said:
Brian ends the argument with his will not spend more point (If that is true)…
To be clear, this is not my argument. I am just the messenger, trying to keep the discussion grounded. Since the end of the regular season, Mo said that Waino and Yadi are the priorities. He hinted they might also look at a DH type, but he also stated on two different occasions that the payroll will be down.
So as I see it, hoping for a payroll increase (or even flat spending) year-to-year would be ignoring very clear messages to the contrary.
As others have suggested, there could still be ways to creatively improve the team. Though Mo directly ruled out tying in a prospect to get rid of a bad contract.
It’s funny, but the value of the team goes up every time the tv revenues go up. This type of profit makes our whole discussion laughable. I have read about a psychological study claiming money guys you happiness up to about $75,000. After that the security it provides begins to diminish, and insecurity about losing it increases.
If this is so, we learn two things: Every owner is crazy not to totally go for it constantly, and the more successful the Cardinal franchise becomes, the greater the paranoia becomes to increase profits.BDW is just as much of a fan as we are. He wants to win just as badly. But he tries to go about it in a fiscally responsible way. Baseball is in his blood. He knows as much about minor leaguers in the system as some on here do. Follows them closely.
Pretty shaky as rumors go…
The Nationals are a possibility for free-agent catcher Yadier Molina. The 38-year-old is drawing interest from multiple teams and Washington is among the teams with a need at catcher.
— Robert Murray (@ByRobertMurray) December 16, 2020
Zunino got 45% of his declined arbitration figure. The qualifying offer was $18.9 million, and 45% of that is 8.05 million. That seems to be about fair to my mind and ridiculous to others.
Not at all. It has inferential fallacy written all over it, but I was just noting a veteran catcher with deteriorating skills got 45% of his declined contract. If we assume an established free agent qualifying offer (which is what we declined to offer Yadi) is 18.9 million, then the result is 8.05 million if the market is operating at about 45% right now.
Oh, 8.05mil on a Yadi contract. Yah, that’s ballpark, I have him signing for higher but no-one knows yet. Best guesses by everyone.
If you use the Yasmani Grandel contract as an example. Last year a superior to McCann in terms of perception(subjective comment) 30 year old catcher got 4 years at 73 million instead of 40 million.
That is the basis of my comments. Just pure speculation.
I am just trying to grasp if Waino and Yadi will leave room for a couple interesting additions.Is there any likelihood of a Bobby Bonilla, deferred payment type contract? Maybe Holiday did this as well?
I refuse to believe the Cardinals suffered actual losses that are greater than the compounded increase in value of the franchise. They have money to spend. As was pointed out earlier, they are simply more interested in being the edgy smartest guys in the room.
I wonder who led a happier life: George Stienbrenner or Gussie Busch?
I have read about a psychological study claiming money guys you happiness up to about $75,000. After that the security it provides begins to diminish, and insecurity about losing it increases.
Nigel T, that’s a very interesting psychologic point and I think there is a lot of truth to it. I would guess the number is higher than 75K, but the point remains. Most people probably feel it wouldn’t matter if they won the lottery when the jackpot is 100 million versus 200 million. But I suppose that’s because they don’t have it to begin with. Why would a guy turn down a 200 million contract with a tradition rich organization for a few million more elsewhere? Does a person who is worth a 100 million change his lifestyle if he doubles his worth? Probably not, but the psychology of going from 200 million to 100 million might be a severe blow.
I think my conclusion is different than yours though. The insecurity or fear by owners of losing big is what keeps them in check somewhat, even though they could handle big losses. I guess most billionaires are driven by the values and philosophies that always drove them, to include profits are good and losses are bad. Performance on the field ultimately plays large in ROI and that’s the part owners can’t purchase by the pound, so they don’t pull the trigger like many fans want. They have faith the value of the franchise will increase regardless.
It would be interesting to know if the risk aversion of many billionaires changes much as they grow in wealth.
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