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Dodgers and Diamondbacks make the most sense to me for Flaherty. We’ll see what they do. I’m not big on trading for injured players, which they did getting Roby from Texas, but Ryan Pepiot would be interesting pickup from the Dodgers, and its been an oblique injury, not arm, thats kept him out. Devin Mann is another Utility type player I like in their system. Hes 26, so they’d have to be more with him, but intriguing especially if they do decide to trade Edman to get more pitching.
Flaherty and DeJong are almost all but gone you’d think. VerHagen, Edman, Carlson or O’Neill, Herrera, Baker all more names that could be gone for sure.
Flaherty may not be traded. It’s very possible that we keep him and offer him the QO and see what he does. That gives us a very solid chance of having him in the rotation next year. If he doesn’t, at least we get a pick. That pick doesn’t help 2024 or 2025, but it’s still not a terrible end result.
I’ll be surprised if Contreras is still a Cardinal Tuesday evening. If I were a GM trying to make a run at the postseason and in need of an outfielder, or two, I’d be losing sleep over the possibility of failing to acquire O’Neill and/or Carlson. They could each be worth 3-5 additional wins in a postseason run.
If you offer Flaherty 1yr / 20mil (QO), he’d be an idiot to turn it down. Then you have an often injured, overpaid middling starter, and collect no pick.
I saw something from mlb.com I think to the effect the Cardinals will need to find three starters this winter to go with Mikolas and Matz. I sure hope Mo sees it that way. Let our laundry list guys be the plan B.
Mo and BDW will spend the rest of this season desperatly trying to construct a reason not to spend money or trade the bronze busts and Faberge eggs this winter. If Hudson and/or Liby can string together a few good starts, years of history and wheels spinning will be shoved under the carpet.
Leaving Wainwright in the rotation instead of opening up a slot to try out some AAA hopefuls like McGreevy and Graceffo doesn’t make any sense at is point. BillMo likes the Waino story, but likes the hope of saving money even more.
I’m ok with Mikolas as the #3. After being injured for most of 3 years after his solid 2018 I was ready to throw in the towel on him but he’s been healthy for 2022 and 2023 (so far).
I’m not ready to trust Matz yet. Yeah, he’s had 4-5 solid starts since the ASB but just like he wasn’t as bad as he appeared to be earlier, neither is he sustainably this good. I think it’s fool’s gold – much like the 11-3 run the Cards went on in early May.
Like Bling says above, I’m afraid Mo will be looking for reasons to not get new pitchers over the winter.
“We have six starters” is still annoyingly fresh in my memory.
For the balance of 2023, the pressure is off. The Cardinals can ‘play loose’ because they aren’t playing for anything.
Sure, some individuals are trying to position themselves for a spot next year – but that’s always the case on every team.
I too am hopeful that Bill and Mo have actually turned over a new philosophical baseball leaf regarding roster construction.
We will find out in about what? 4-5 months? Until then about all we can do is ride out what’s left of 2023 and speculate…
Connor Thomas and one of the new guys, besides King, are already on the 40 man. Might as well find out if they are men or mice.
Whatever Mo and junior say they’re going to do has to be put on the shelf until they do something. To make the Cardinals a championship caliber team has to be done from the outside. There’s no one from Memphis who is going to be the solution. We’ve seen how mediocre the stable of prospects is. The waiver wire is no answer and signing people who haven’t played in two or three years is not an answer. The only way to make the Cardinals very good would cost a whole bunch of money…fifty to sixty million added to the payroll. I don’t see Junior doing that. My fear is that they’ll sign another Matz or Leake and Mo will declare the problem fixed and say he is excited about this team. I just can’t trust those two do anything worthwhile.
They’ll probably add a starter via trade and one via free agency. They also are probably going to watch how effective Hudson and Libby are for the remainder of the season.
Woodford is another possibility. Robberse, Kloffenstein, Roby, and Rom may come into play over the course of the 2025 season.
I’m actually more concerned about what they’re going to do with the bullpen. It’s been the main achilles heel this season.The bullpen has been a problem but the rotation has been a bigger problem. The solution has to start with the rotation which would then make fixing the bullpen easier.
As other have pointed out we need three new starters. A #1, #2, and #4. Mikolas is #3 and Matz is #5. At this point I would consider Hudson and Libby 6 and 7 but I have no problem having them on the roster next year. A team always needs more than five starters. More like ten.
“They’ll probably add a starter via trade and one via free agency. They also are probably going to watch how effective Hudson and Libby are for the remainder of the season.”
Whatever Dakota & Matt do over the next 8 weeks, there’s no way either of them can reasonably be penciled in for the Opening Day 2024 rotation, and Mo realizes that I believe. (Liberatore isn’t going to do anything worthwhile if he’s damaged goods, as he certainly appears to be based a 4 MPH drop in the fastball since May.)
In fact, the matter was clarified two days ago on the air. Tuesday night during the game, Jim Hayes quoted Mozeliak as saying quite clearly that the club would add THREE starting pitchers over the winter. Moreover, very specifically Mo said that the recent trade acquisitions are NOT even being considered as possible rotation candidates for Opening Day, 2024.
My personal hope would be for two trades to clear some redundant clutter (5 starting OFers + 4 middle infielders + 3 catchers does not work) and one free agent signing. But I expect it’ll be one trade and two FAs. And then we’ll have the same exact problem next year with a confused third-rate manager distributing playing time haphazardly and pretty much getting the least out of everyone, especially in the field.
I would like to see one rookie starter be one of the 5. Mcgreevy or Graceffo. And in best case scenario Hence might be ready by July.
Moz missed his chance at a normal offseason by not finding at least one SP in a trade or by keeping Jack or Monty and extending them
now he is in a hole
at least 2 MAJOR FA SP acquisitions PLUS probably one good bullpen piece
#1… Nola or Snell
Mik
#3 Not sure who he targets, Monty or Monty-like feels a solid target
Matz
Libby or bargain bin vet (Hill, Paxton maybe?)If you could land Nola nd Snell it doesnt get us younger but it at least gets us some history of success but i think that is even a reach
Until our next wave of kids show up and are effective (Hence, Graceffo, McGreevy) I think we are stuck targeting 3-4yr deal SPs
I imagine Moz will try to outthink the market with one FA SP (ala Matz), and then probably overpay for someone who isn’t his first choice.
I feel Moz’s wheelhouse has always been at his best when his offseason looks like:
ONE trade
ONE big FA
a few bargain bin pieces
extensionsand the fewer of any of those brings us better quality in the others
I imagine we will end up with
Snell (overpay)
Wacha (hope for health)
Hill (overpay and 3-4yrs too late…ala Mark Ellis, ANdrew Miller)
2-3 hopes and dreams relieversMoz has pulled off some nice trades lately with Goldy and Arenado that didnt cost us much, maybe he can do that with pitching
I am wondering if we are seeing a potential Angels selloff if Ohtani bolts, bring in Trout, but even if not target Sandoval who has had a down year but has plenty of control
Kopech from CWS seems a very worthy target with his control remaining…io still think a Burly centered deal could make that happen
Off the top of my head with the deadline fresh and no knowledge of so many things yet:
And all the wheeling and dealing i can manage :P)
Nola FA probably overpay (25m per)
Hader FA overpay definitely (16m per)
trade Nootbaar, Baker, Hjerpe, Baez, for Trout and Sandoval (Goldy/Arenado type deal….assuming Ohtani leaves and Angels) (we take on almost all of the money to also snag Sandoval) (Trout 35m, Sandoval ~3m?)
trade Burly + Ivan + for Kopech
Solano FA
Jankowski FANola
Mik
Sandoval
Matz
Kopech/LibbyHader Helsley Gallegos Jojo ZachT VDH King…kid
Donovan
Trout
Goldy
Arenado
Gorman
Contreras
Walker
Carlson
EdmanKniz, Jankowski, Solano, kid
Just what i’d love to try….but the real answer will be so far from it
again probably…1 trade, 1 FA, dumpster diving, an extension or two…
super long… ugh
On the sunny side, if the Cardinals sputter out of the gate in ’24, I’d have to guess he’d be paid what he’s owed and sacked while there’s still time to avoid a tailspin that subsequently crashes them into the deck which is what should have happened back in May. He shouldn’t be given another opportunity to mutter something as stupid as, “I guarantee this will help this team in Sept…I’ll tell you that.”
Good question..
BenFred: After getting blunt about rotation's needs, will Cardinals follow through? https://t.co/GuqRk2sm81
— STLToday Sports News (@STL_SportsNews) August 4, 2023
I wouldn’t be surprised to see McGreevy go out of ’24 spring training as the 5th starter behind the #1 and #2 starters (that Mo is going to get us) Mikolas and Matz. McG has been the most consistent starter at Memphis all season.
McG has been the most consistent starter at Memphis all season.
Both Liberatore and Graceffo have better ERA, WHIP and BAA.
The bullpen has been a problem but the rotation has been a bigger problem. The solution has to start with the rotation which would then make fixing the bullpen easier.
Although catchergate seems to be dormant for now, I think Mo said something to the effect it will be looked at this winter. There probably were, and maybe still are, issues with Contreras integrating with the pitching staff and the system. Some of that is because much of the staff bailed on ST to do the WBC. Some of it is the absense of Yadi overseeing that whole dynamic. Some of it may be shortcomings on the part of Willson. We realy don’t know. There may be an inadequacy in the pitching coaching and/or the way the output of the analytics wonks is integrated into pitcher game prep. We don’t know any of that either. Whatever sorting out Mo does or doesn’t do will affect the effectiveness of next year’s pitching staff, whoever it consists of. If Knizner continues to look like a real catcher, that could potentially factor into Mo’s sorting. The point being that the effectiveness of next year’s pitching staff involves a lot of moving parts besides the pitchers. If Mo doesn’t get those moving parts right, we will not get full value out of whoever he acquires this winter. It would be a shame to obtain a couple studs only to have them munched up by disfunction around them.
McG has been the most consistent starter at Memphis all season.
LA: Both Liberatore and Graceffo have better ERA, WHIP and BAA.
We’ll just see who rises to the top.
I think it will be in everyone’s interests if Contreras is moved elsewhere this winter. Bob Reed has cited the particular stats about how much better the pitching staff has performed with Knizner than Contreras. I doubt those numbers are a coincidence.
The front office just needs to take their medicine, pay down the contract, chalk it up as a mistake, and move on.
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