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#STLCards president John Mozeliak didn't come right out and say it, but clearly he isn't happy with how things played out in Willson Contreras' first season in St. Louis. He indicated that changes are coming with how catchers prepare and handle pitchers in 2024. (MORE, 1/3)
— John Denton (@JohnDenton555) July 18, 2023
More Mozeliak on the #STLCards catching situation for 2024: "(cont.) … out of Herrera, which is good. But, ultimately, I think when we start thinking about 2024, some of those things will have to be more addressed in the offseason.”
(END, 3/3)
— John Denton (@JohnDenton555) July 18, 2023
thejager:
I think it is mistake for the team to do TOO much, for it’s failings this year, they were all pretty evident coming in and they were not addressed in the offseason.
Some good points that have been gone over and over in this frustrating season but this puts most out on the table.
Latest trade rumor: Carlson to the Yankees.
Is a Contreras trade doable at this point?
The Cardinals would probably have to eat some of the money unless they attached a valuable younger player in the deal.
Nobody wanted him last year with an expiring contract. They sure don’t now with $59.5+ million remaining. We’re stuck with him for 3 years. Might as well trade Herrera now while he’s worth something.
time to look for a pitching coach, the issues with slow starts and poor communication btwn catchers and pitchers indicate issues with the coaching philosophy…
It will be interesting to see how the Front Office navigates the waters between now and the start of next season. So many holes in the pitching staff to fill in 2024, improving the team defense and improving the offensive performance of the outfield. All this with potential of eating portions of long-term contracts that have not worked out in order to clear roster spots. I sure hope the Cardinal’s Analyitics Group is capable of identifying players that can contribute and fit within ownership’s financial framework. No short order for sure.
In addition to the remaining salary commitment, Contreras’ full no-trade protection would have to be bought out.
The Cardinals FO’s incompetence is on full display this season. They’ve spent years teaching pitchers to pitch to contact and not worry about striking guys out and then when everyone knew MLB was going to be pushing to end the shift, something the Cards greatly used, they did nothing to prepare for it and acted like nothing changed. We’ve now seen how that’s played out.
So…we’re doing this again?
#STLCards president John Mozeliak didn't come right out and say it, but clearly he isn't happy with how things played out in Willson Contreras' first season in St. Louis. He indicated that changes are coming with how catchers prepare and handle pitchers in 2024. (MORE, 1/3)
— John Denton (@JohnDenton555) July 18, 2023
He doesn’t want to admit that he screwed up by not compiling an actual pitching staff that could complete to win a title? Throwing Contreras under the bus again was dumb a few months ago and its dumb now. You’re the one who compiled this god awful staff.
Contreras stayed with the team all spring, skipping the WBC, to ensure his working with the pitchers would be smooth.
So, someone needs to explain what really happened. There are only so many possibilities. Did the coaches not coach? Did Contreras not listen? Did the pitchers not listen?
As noted, to date, all the blame has been placed on Contreras.
The only two things we know for sure are that Willson’s D behind the plate is bad, and that our FO didn’t seem to know that. That suggests player evaluation incompetence, which is not a revelation. In my mind, it also calls into question the FO’s evaluation of this whole catcher/pitcher/system drama that has resurfaced. Catchergate II, the sequel. I am more convinced than ever that Mo has lost his marbles and is just flailing around. The precipitous firing of Cabrera, accompanied by unsightly statements from Mo and Ollie, and the apparent emergency hire of a guy even worse just adds to it.
An additional thing that I would bet the farm on is that there wasn’t so much demand for Contreras that the only way Mo could get him was to go 5 years. That was a play be the agent that worked like a charm.
If Johnny wants to point fingers and place blame, he should situate himself right in the middle of his traveling secretary with the pretty hair and his little circus clown field manager while all three of them look into a mirror together and point directly at the reflection…”I’ll tell you that.”
Nobody wanted him last year with an expiring contract. They sure don’t now with $59.5+ million remaining. We’re stuck with him for 3 years. Might as well trade Herrera now while he’s worth something.
There is actually $77M and 4 years + an option remaining on the Contreras contract after this season.
They aren’t going to trade him this month but it sounds like they will explore the option this winter. To move him they would have to sweeten the pot with cash or other players.
Shoot, you’re right. Even worse. I was thinking it was 2 more years at 18, then 18.5, then a 5 buy out. It’s 3 more years at 18, then 18.5, then the 5 buy out.
The Contreras signing was a knee-jerk reaction so they would have acquired a catcher when the music stopped, just like they told the world they would.
I wanted Knizner and a vet like Zunino, with the Contreras funds going toward the pitching staff. Just another misappropriation of funds.
Mo should do the honorable thing a step down. His micromanaging is failing.
Bernie pretty much summed up my thoughts without all the expletives and screaming:
I like Bernie okay, but that article states that, “The Cardinals haven’t been a true seller since 1990 when Jocketty traded OF’er Willie McGee to Oakland in late August”…Haha! Again, I like Bernie okay, and I’ll cut him some slack because in 1990 he was still covering NFL football which was how he got his start. He covered the Colts in Baltimore which is where he’s originally from. I actually met him and had quite a few conversations with him at a time when he first started working for the Post. He lived in our old neighborhood in StL. city when I was coaching my son’s basketball team and he’d show up at our practices in the Lindenwood Park area. He seemed like a nice guy. At any rate, Walt Jocketty doesn’t look anything like Dal Maxvill…Haha!
Bernie always wheels out an assortment of stats to support whatever he is saying. Its very predictable and gets old. One can come up with stats to support whatever you want.
Here is the one thing of note:
“Montgomery’s request to discuss a contract extension before the 2023 season failed to entice management’s interest. If Montgomery — STL’s best starter — is too expensive for DeWitt, then what the hell does that say?”
But that was then. Last winter Mo and many others were buying into the laundry list of reclamation projects, injury rehabs, walking wounded, bum shoulders and dubious hopefuls. Now is now. The laundry list went up in smoke. Presumably, pitching that was too expensive then might not be now. We hope at least.
In addition to the remaining salary commitment, Contreras’ full no-trade protection would have to be bought out.
I think Contreras will be happy to get out of St. Louis.
Haha!…Do you blame him? I’d be surprised if the majority of established Big League players on this roster wouldn’t be happy to move on to another team. In fact, I woudln’t at all be surprised if the Cardinals are now taking on a bad reputation around the league as a place to play. These guys talk amongst each other and word gets around.
Presumably, pitching that was too expensive then might not be now. We hope at least.
Ummm…does anyone want to tell him? Anyone?
3) Montgomery and Stratton for prospects. Together they should be able to land 2-3 quality prospects. Baltimore and Atlanta are both teams I could see an easy fit for them.
4) Hicks and VerHagen to Texas for a couple minor leaguers.
-Texas needs RP help. I don’t know the extent of VerHagen’s hip impingement and if he’s tradable, but his contract is expiring and throw him in for depth. AA IF Thomas Saggese is a guy I like, right handed Donovan like player. Scrappy, can play all over.Mo, doing something I approve of kinda scares me. As I said I’d put Montgomery and Stratton together and while they went to Texas and not Hicks, Saggese (pronounced So-Jay-see) was one of the prospects they got back. I’ll have to do some more investigating on the other guys they got.
The #STLCards acquired minor league RHPS Sem Robberse and Adam Kloffenstein from the Toronto Blue Jays in exchange Jordan Hicks.
Robberse, who pitched in the MLB Futures Game earlier this month, is a 21-year-old from Zeist, Netherlands.
Robberse has started 18 games this season for New Hampshire (AA), going 3-5 with a 4.06 ERA in 88.2 innings pitched.
Kloffenstein, 22, is a 6-5, 243-pound right-hander from Magnolia, Texas who was the Blue Jays 3rd round draft choice in 2018.
Kloffenstein has started 17 games for Double-A New Hampshire, going 5-5 with a 3.24 ERA (6th in all of Double-A) in 89.0 innings of work. He’s struck out 105 this season and had one complete game effort.
Robberse and Kloffentstein will be assigned to Triple-A Memphis.
All from John Denton twitter
edit/ meant this for the Hicks thread, sorry.
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