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Doesn’t everyone play 2B? Donny, Gorman, Saggese. Some here like JJ there. For the STL immediate needs, controllable pitching for infielders has possibilities galore. Who we backfill 2B with is secondary imo.
I’m pretty confident that Arenado is gone one way or another…. After that’s finalized, CB’s first call should be to Gorman…. “Focus on 3B this offseason, you’re the full time 3Bman for the 2026 stl cardinals” and “Steaks on me when I see ya in FL”
It was on the last page so didn’t see your comment, I want JJ to get 100 AB’s in Memphis, aka a month to make sure he’s a super two. I could care less about what DeCheapo has to pay, just that they gain an extra year of control
Yep cfict, when appropriate w/JJ. That possible 2B role for him we hope would solidify 2B/SS thru Winn’s control.
3B may funnel both Nolans’ out the door. One this season, one next? We have 3 seasons of Gorman remaining, and 6 seasons of Saggese. Maybe it comes down to who clubs ask for in trade. We know Donny is a hot item.
I want JJ to get 100 AB’s in Memphis, aka a month to make sure he’s a super two. I could care less about what DeCheapo has to pay, just that they gain an extra year of control
So, Nick Kurtz won rookie of the year. He was drafted in 2024. Began the season at AAA. He got an extra year of service time because he won Rookie of the Year.
Two Seattle podcasters proposed trading infielder Michael Arroyo, switch-hander Jurrangelo Cijntje and a 2026 Comp Round B draft pick to the Cardinals for Brendan Donovan and Riley O’Brien.
… at 9:50.
At MLB.com’s Top 100 Prospects list, Arroyo ranks No. 63 and Cijntje No. 90.
https://www.mlb.com/milb/prospects/top100/
Thoughts?
I don’t think that is enough in return for Donovan and Riley. These guys are at A ball, and long shots to make it it to the bigs despite their prospect rankings.
Arroyo played 56 games at AA with a .717 OPS.
Cjintje started 7 games at AA with a 2.67 ERA.I don’t know why you are saying they are at A ball.
As for the trade package, I would be thrilled if we got Cjintje back as part of the package for Donovan. I would hope the Cardinals would target either an outfielder or pitcher with the second player coming back.
The package proposed is in line with what we can hope for.
I’m with C27, I don’t think that’s enough for both and not that super exciting prospects given the state of the Cards strengths and weaknesses.
Donny and Jojo as a package or Donny and Crooks or all theee, is their best bet for a game changing RH starter with 4 years of control left.
I say RH starter because on top of Libby… Doyle, Ixan, Mathews, Mautz, maybe Hjerpe…. I could see them all being options in 27 or 28 depending on health and performance of course.
I’d pencil in O’Brien, Leahy or Svansen as the closer assuming/hoping Jojo is dealt, am I wrong there?
I think the proposed Seattle trade leaves us waiting years to possibly see the kids in majors. The keyword is possibly. And as far as closer goes, I think it will be a committee. But I would prefer Svanson being the guy. He was fantastic last year.
I’d like to see Nootbaar traded also. We need way more production from the outfield. Until Baez arrives I’d be interested in a Bader or Lane Thomas reunion.
The return for Donovan and O’Brien would probably be “fair,” but I don’t care for it. Cijntje is a gimmick player and those players have turned out, what, once in recent MLB history? Arroyo is intriguing, but he had the bat knocked out of his hands more at AA and unless he can play 3B, he probably doesn’t help the big league club. The comp B pick is probably the more exciting part.
Still, I would rather aim for real pitching upside than go back to the position well at the moment.
FWIW Baseball Trade Values assigns Brendan Donovan a surplus value of $32.1 million and Riley O’Brien a surplus value of $4.5 million.
BTV assigns Michael Arroyo a surplus value of $20 million and Jurrangelo Cijntje a surplus value of $15.9 million. So far this year BTV has not assigned a value to Comp Round B draft picks but last year the picks had a surplus value in the $2 million range.
Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong here, I think most Cardinal fans are set on Donnie bringing back a top controllable pitcher, BUT, the Cardinals OF is beyond sad as well.
They have their fast and defensive expert CF and Burly brings more offensively on this club than his OF play lags. Other than that it’s pretty pathetically horrible. Noot ain’t the answer folks!
That being said if they could package, Donnie and Crooks and/or Church, and/or Jojo and/or Pages, and/or one of the back end relievers (discussed this morning) for a stud outfielder with control who can hit more than six home runs a year and at least a .215BA and well above NEGATIVE 1.7 WAR. That actually makes sense, be something they are looking at as well for Donnie.
No argument that it’s fair value here. I don’t think it’s an offer that should blow away the Cards’ brass, as the Mariners homers seem to think. Arroyo is a good prospect, but he’s not going to beat out Wetherholt or Winn up the middle, so I would argue that he’s not worth as much to St Louis as he would appear at BTV.
And I’ll say again…Cinjtje is a gimmick player. He gave up 14 HRs at A+, with a .234 BABIP allowed and a ghastly FIP. He was unlucky with the HR ball, perhaps, but if he wasn’t throwing both ways (poorly from the left hand side), he wouldn’t have the value that prospect evaluators assign him, either.
I would much rather the Cards get real value from their one good tradeable asset, not one redundant player and a lotto ticket that almost assuredly won’t pan out.
We need to be targeting guys who are either ready for AAA now or maybe pre-arb guys already in the bigs. Hoping that A and AA guys make it a few years from now just doesn’t move the needle for me. Especially not for Donovan who is our biggest chip.
We need to be targeting guys who are either ready for AAA now or maybe pre-arb guys already in the bigs
When is our next window of contention?
Cardinals have indicated they don’t plan on seriously contending in 2026.
When is our next window of contention?
I think it is 2028 which is why I would be looking at AAA or pre-arb players now. Those type of players will still have plenty of team control left in 2028.
It depends on what you define as “contention.” If it’s a division winning outfit, the Cards could have a shot as soon as 2027 (if there’s baseball). If you’re talking about a team to challenge for the pennant/Series, then we could be looking much longer, even 2029 or 2030.
Since 1996, the Cards have four fallow periods, I would argue: 1997-1999, 2007-2008, 2016-2018, and 2023-2025. In the late 90s, they became a contender in 2000, so call it a three year rebuild to division and pennant contention both. In the late 00s, it took two years to win the Central, maybe three or four to real contention again. In the late 2010s it was three years to win the Central, and generously let’s say they were a real contender then, since they did make the NLCS.
This time around, they are starting closer to scratch, and there’s no Pujols around. History would say that 2027 or 2028 would be around the time to contend again, on a normal time frame. We really need some stars to show up, soon.
I am so sick of this small market stuff. If anything, the cards have one of the biggest markets geographically speaking. They have fans covering at least 6 states. Their franchise is one of the most recognizable in all of sports. If the front office is truly convinced that they can’t compete with the likes of la or ny, etc, they should quit the majors and become a triple a club. That’s the team they’ve been playing with over the past few years anyway!
We currently have $0 in guaranteed payroll commitments after 2027. Contreras has a $5M club option for 2028 but that would count towards a 2027 calendar year expense if they pay the option. At least that is how Cot’s figures those things.
Regardless, 2028 is pretty much a clean slate salary wise so that should be the year to make some big moves.
I am so sick of this small market stuff. If anything, the cards have one of the biggest markets geographically speaking. They have fans covering at least 6 states. Their franchise is one of the most recognizable in all of sports. If the front office is truly convinced that they can’t compete with the likes of la or ny, etc, they should quit the majors and become a triple a club. That’s the team they’ve been playing with over the past few years anyway!
Market size rankings for the CBA in 2022.
235 – Yankees and Mets
180 – Dodgers and Angels
120 – Cubs and White Sox
115 – Blue Jays
111 – Giants and Athletics
110 – Phillies and Nationals
102 – Red Sox
99 – Rangers
97 – Braves
92 – Astros
87 – Mariners
79 – Twins
76 – Diamondbacks
74 – Rays
73 – Tigers and Rockies
69 – Marlins
68 – Baltimore
62 – Guardians and Padres
58 – Cardinals
56 – Pirates
55 – Royals
51 – Reds
50 – BrewersClearly the Cardinals can’t compete with NY and LA. And the problem in baseball right now, i love the “free market”, but LA and NY are significantly larger than the rest. Then the next 7 are still pretty large. Then the rest I’d say are pretty “competitively equal”. St. Louis isn’t anywhere near a large market, if they were the Rams wouldn’t have left for the LA money either.
I don’t think ‘when we might be a contender’ can be addressed in a meaningful way right now. It seems like BDW is done trying to hire a MOTO and the whole upper part of the rotation. The system is going to have to produce that if we are to contend, and we have no basis for trying to estimate when that might happen. No one know if the Bloom regime will be successful. As of now we have some promising pitchers coming out of
The Texas League, and really nothing to speak of at all in the way of promising MOTO difference making power hitters. We have some potentially interesting complementary players coming along, but we always have. That is not what is missing. Its OK to dream though. Dream that everything will work and be successful. Dream that we will get better faster than competing teams will get better. Dream that the system will become able to add faster than attrition subtracts. Just stay tethered to reality. Hopefully we will see concrete positive signs of success before long. Lets see how the AA pitchers look in AAA. Lets see if any kind of power hitter emerges from the mist. Right now we can’t even produce an outfielder who can hit and field decently, so it is a long road ahead.I think it is 2028 which is why I would be looking at AAA or pre-arb players now.
So, if a AA guy progresses one season at a time, he will be debuting in 2028, which is when you believe the next window of contention will begin.
So, what good does a pre-arb guy do us, that will use half his eligibility before we are serious again?
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