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Timing is important, but is it really that difficult to find a Lynn quality starter on the market late in the off-season? It seems less an issue of timing and more an issue of the Cards being stuck to their valuations and being ok with going a couple million more on one year deals but completely unwilling to leave themselves open to risk beyond that. I realize that they made bad choices before with guys like Fowler, Cecil and the like but there has to be some level of give and take to field a championship team. The Cards just aren’t willing to do that, which tells us most of what we know about how they think of this year’s club. Either 2023 was a fluke in their mind or it’s an unstated rebuild. Doesn’t seem to be much in between.
The Cardinals seem much more willing to give out long term deals to position players than to pitchers and a lot of teams share that philosophy. Of course if you want an ace pitcher you are generally going to have to go with a long term contract or produce one from your own farm system. The Cardinals have done neither lately. Instead they tried to thread the needle with Gray. He is considered to be an almost ace or number 2 but the only way they got him on a three year deal is because of his age.
As for fluke or rebuild I think the Cardinals believe 2023 was a fluke that can be corrected with some innings eaters and a dash of veteran leadership. I don’t think they have rebuild on their mind at all. They will never even use that word. I’m sure they view the 2023 deadline moves as a temporary retreat instead of a rebuild and I think the team would have to be in very bad shape by this July for them to sell again. Doing it two years in a row would be a huge admission that I don’t think they are capable of doing.
As long as the current leadership is in place, I’m afraid a trade is going to be the only option for getting a top-notch starter.
When your ace goes down and you have to turn to Miles Mikolas for opening day, that’s not good…..
A package of Saggese and one of the four outfielders that are in the top 10 of the Cardinals Top 30 ought to be enough to get a conversation started, especially if Saggese hits like he did in 2023.
mud, I doubt Scott would be on the table and Saggese was the lesser part of a package that was worth a two month rental. The Cardinals are extremely lite of trade goods if the lineup regulars are excluded.
I think the point I was making is that, if Saggese hits like many expect him to, somebody will be interested. Honeyman and Cho could be in the mix, and maybe even Scott or Davis. The Cardinals have several appealing young arms that could be in the mix. It all depends upon what the other side has to offer.
I look at the Dylan Cease trade and I see Drew Thorpe apparently headlining the package and he’s only pitched 30 unremarkable innings above High A. Another pitcher in the trade, Jairo Iriarte, gave up 5 BB/9 at High A, and 4 BB/9 at AA. Iriarte is listed at 6’2, 160 lbs, so he must be projectable. Steven Wilson is a 29 year old reliever that was in the package. The final player is Samuel Zavala, a 19 year old outfielder with only 41 AB above A ball.
The soon to be 22 year old, Thomas Saggese, posted a slash line of .331/.662/1.064 for his Texas League MVP season. If he posts a line comparable to that for 2024, that’s enough to at least get a conversation started, IMO.
One of our favorite potential trade targets, Shane Bieber, is out for the year. He’ll have Tommy John soon.
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2024/04/shane-bieber-to-undergo-tommy-john-surgery.html
(Sorry if this was posted elsewhere, a quick look didn’t show it for me)
Yep it was a good thing Mo didn’t pull the trigger on that one. Maybe a year from now Bieber can get one of those Brandon Woodruff type deals.
I pray the cardinals don’t extend goldschmidt, trade him if they can, his skills have diminished badly
This may be an odd comment to make this early in the year but I would be in favor of seeing what we could get in trade for Burly, Gorman, and Walker. Not one trade but three separate trades. Of course this kind of thing would probably happen in the offseason not right now.
Why would I propose such a thing? Well the common denominator of the three is average to well below average defense. Shoddy defense just irks me to no end. I know that offense is needed but pitching and defense wins championships. I would see if we could get some young, high end pitching for those three guys and then try to find players elsewhere who can both hit and field, either through trade or free agency.
Bad defense. Bad offense. who wants them?
Gorman and Walker’s offense will uptick. I don’t know bout Burly’s. But they are all cheap and two of the three come with high pedigree. I am sure the Cardinals have turned down acquisitions of significant pitchers (Cease) because they wouldn’t turn loose of Gorman or Walker. At some point they should consider it.
gscottar, there is one word why I don’t think the “trade Gorman, Walker and Burly” idea will fly.
Money.
Homegrown pre-arbitration players with multiple years of control remaining are especially desirable for a team that watches its budget as closely as the Cardinals. The replacement players they would bring in via trade and especially free agency would almost certainly cost them more, perhaps considerably more.
It could turn out that way Brian unless they trade them for young, cost controlled pitching, which would mean they wouldn’t have to pay for expensive veteran pitching, which would free up funds for replacement positon players.
Teams like the Mariners and Dodgers have a plethora of cheap, high end pitching that might interest the Cardinals. Lynn and Gibson will be out of contract at the end of 2024 while Mikolas and Matz will be out of contract at the end of 2025. The four of them combined make $52M/year. Replacing them with cost controlled pitchers should free up funds for elsewhere on the field.
I think the Cardinals are hoping that a combination of some of the minor league pitchers they traded for last season and the in-house options will make acquiring outside pitchers unnecessary. We will know much more about these hopes by fall…
Any minors in-house arms overachieving by fall, will be a welcome addition to next years pen.
We need a SP2 by trade, by the deadline. If the cost is as GS suggests, pull that trigger, cost controlled for cost controlled.
Even if we are sellers at the deadline, the goal of the rebuild remains unfinished. Adding a SP2 & SP3 by opening day 2025 is doable, if we don’t get side-tracked.
I’m not well versed in the minors pitching like most here are, but my guess is the cubbards are very full of hopefuls. A necessary portion of the rebuild is filled.
The additions going forward are needed at the mlb level, which is why I think GS is offering mlb talent. It appears he wants game ready, and so do I.
The additions going forward are needed at the mlb level, which is why I think GS is offering mlb talent. It appears he wants game ready, and so do I.
Yes but I what I really want is a team based on pitching and defense. We have too many players playing out of position because of their bat or not capable of playing good defense anywhere.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this premise. Trading Burleson? Fine. Ok I guess. He’s basically our 6th outfielder and backup 1B. That’s not that critical. I like his bat, but no question that he’s below average in the outfield. I’d prefer to keep him, but it’s not paramount if we can get something we need more.
Gorman has worked extremely hard to become a good 2B player. He may never be far above average, but he was average last year and good this year. And he’s still learning to be a hitter, but has power beyond just about every MLB second baseman.
Walker is in the same boat but 1 year behind Gorman. He’s working to be average in RF and looks to be there now or at least close. By next season, he will likely be even better. And he is also learning to be a good hitter with huge power potential. His hit line last year at the age of 21 was well above average.
Because of the team’s situation with lack of depth, Walker, Winn, and now Scott were all promoted too early. But we’re maybe a year out from having 3 all star players in this group. Combine that with Gorman, Nootbaar, Donovan, and Carlson, that’s a hell of a core. Throw in Arenado, Contreras, and Herrera and it may be elite. It’s just not elite yet because these guys are mostly under 26 and that seems to be about the age of ascension for a lot of players. We wanted them all to be Pujols because we were filled with reports on how good they are and will be throughout their minor league careers. We rated them all super highly and proclaimed them as saviors. But that’s completely unfair to them. And now we want to trade them all away so we can be disappointed once more when a 22 year old we rush to the majors can’t fill in as an all star? What then? I think patience should play out right now. Let our garden take root and grow.
I think there is a reasonable chance that Gorman and Walker meet our expectations offensively but they are both still a big question mark defensively which will reduce their WAR potential. I also believe it is unwise to dismiss a trade without knowing what the return is. What if the Cardinals could get Bobby Miller from the Dodgers or Logan Gilbert of the Mariners or someone else of that caliber? We would probably have to throw in others to get names like that but if you plug in two young studs into our rotation then all of a sudden our rotation gets much better and much cheaper for several years. That then gives you the opportunity to use those savings to go find players who can both hit AND field at a more elite level.
I am a product of the 1980’s Whitey teams built on pitching, defense, and athleticism. I still wish teams were built that way or at least somewhat more like that. Without artifical turf and with the DH I know we are doomed with “AL style” baseball for the foreseeable future but I still think pitching and defense wins championships.
I’m fine with Gormans D at 2B, but he has depth behind him, forever 🙂
A 30 HR+ second baseman sells, well.I tease that Walkers best position is trade chip. If the goal is pitching and D, how does Walker not head the list of trade candidates?
I don’know the ETA of our best minors SP’rs, or how long until they can deliver SP2 & SP3 results. I do know, I want us to contend, before then.
I’m ok with listening to proposals. There’s always a potential to upgrade. But all you’re doing in those trades is robbing Peter to pay Paul. And worse, you’re trading for the riskiest of all positions. No way would I trade either Gorman or Walker straight up for Miller or Gilbert. No chance. In my opinion, that kind of trade makes our future a whole lot cloudier. But I understand the win now go for it mentality of the Steve Cohen’s and AJ Preller’s of the world. I just disagree with it as good strategy. But I accept that you could be right.
I’m guessing that both Gorman and Walker will rapidly improve the quality of their play on defense. Gorman was never all that bad at 2B, and I’ve been able to detect a very measurable improvment in the OF play of Walker during the early part of this season. His first step and routes to baseballs hit in the air look much better to me at this early phase. He also seems to have gained some confidence out there in RF which never hurts. Both these guys look like pretty good athletic specimens to me and I expect them to continue to tighten up the stitching on their respective mitts.
I don’t view stockpiling young, elite pitching as win now mode. Quite the opposite I view that as a good investment on the future because without it you end up using a considerable amount of your payroll on guys like Mikolas, Matz, Lynn, and Gibson. I would rather save my free agent money on quality position players.
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