- This topic has 1,402 replies, 45 voices, and was last updated 2 hours, 50 minutes ago by
.
-
Posts
-
I won’t in any way argue it was a good investment or that it worked out well, but saying Matz stole $44 million is a bit harsh. He was legitimately hurt several times (which the Cardinals probably had insurance to cover some of) and was worth basically 4 FWAR over 4 seasons. Not good but considering he was hurt for about 2 seasons of that it’s 2 FWAR per season that he was healthy or an average MLB pitcher. Plus, the Red Sox picked up the final 4 million. It was a bad investment (some others have been far worse). But I don’t feel like Matz stole anything.
I agree that my comment on Matz was harsh, to say the least.
The basis of my complaint was that baseball fans gave him $44M and he gave back virtually nothing in return. I fully understand that this is the system that the industry has developed and agreed to work with. In a fair and just and sensible reality, if a player like Matz can’t work, then he should go on workman’s comp just like the rest of us. This is personal and it bothers me personally. I apologize to those who find this offensive. That’s all.I was never a big fan of Steve Matz, but I never thought of him as a thief. You guys must have Matz mixed up with Leake. Keep your shirt on…
No worries Mud! I just thought it was a bit exaggerated. I don’t blame Matz for being ho-hum. With all his injuries and the fact of his age, he wasn’t a very good signing. More a fault of the Cardinals brass than Matz personally. This is often the issue with buying 30+ year old free agent pitchers. A few work out and most don’t or at least aren’t worth the value paid.
Matz is a good example of War being potentially misleading. Yes he produced 4 WAR, but we would have been better off with someone who played at replacement level every time. You know what you have and can count on it. Never knowing if its good Matz or bad Matz or injured Matz is worthless. Worse than worthless because you are always having to scramble around for plan b. Not just him, but that type of pitcher.
I agree Bling. The Matz signing was bad for the Cardinals all around. I wasn’t trying to justify it being even remotely good for the team. Just trying to justify that Matz wasn’t dogging it and stealing money. I think he tried hard and got hurt a lot. While he was solid in the pen for about a year and a half of that contract, he was being way overpaid as a middle or long reliever and those resources would have been better spent elsewhere. As you said, we could have gotten equal production or close to it for league minimum.
Cardinals get George Kirby (3 years of control)
Mariners get Jordan Walker (4 years of control), Blaze Jordan and Nate DohmMariners say no?
Just trying to justify that Matz wasn’t dogging it and stealing money.
I am sure that comment was intended to reflect that the team got nothing for the money rather than intending any slight against his character. I assume he played his best when he could.
Cardinals get George Kirby (3 years of control)
Mariners get Jordan Walker (4 years of control), Blaze Jordan and Nate DohmMariners say no?
I ran that proposal through the Baseball Trade Values Simulator. Here are the values for each player mentioned.
George Kirby: 69.3
Jordan Walker: 0.0
Blaze Jordan: 1.8
Nate Dohm: 1.8So yes the Mariners would say no.
gs, could you run some stuff through the simulator to give a couple examples of what we could offer that would equal Kirby’s 69.3? Maybe a wake up call about what we have that is worth anything would be helpful.
The top 10 Cardinals according to BTV value are:
Wetherholt: 54.8
Winn: 31.2
McGreevy: 27.6
Donovan: 23.4
Doyle: 22.9
Herrera: 22
Liberatore: 20.4
Nootbaar: 20.2
R. Rodriguez: 19.7
Burleson: 13.5So it would take one or two or three of those players to get the Mariners attention on Gilbert.
On the flip side, Arenado, with 2yr/$37M remaining, is valued at -$31.0M.
Gscott – What are Gray and Contreras valued at?
On the flip side, Arenado, with 2yr/$37M remaining, is valued at -$31.0M.
Gscott – What are Gray and Contreras valued at?
Gray is listed at -16.8
Contreras is listed at -9.4All of the NTC guys have negative value.
Drew Rom is listed at 0.4, Michael Siani at 0.2, and Chris Roycroft at 0.1. So all three of them technically have more trade value than Jordan Walker. Think about that.
Donovan has lost about $12m in projected value in a few weeks. He really is a guy that a forward thinking organization would have cashed in already.
Personally I think Bloom will make 2 big moves. Arenado, Nootbaar, Romero, and cash to the Dodgers for some prospects. Then will also move Donovan for a haul of prospects. The rest of the moves will be minor trades and non-tenders of Roycroft, Siani, Munoz, King, and probably Alcala. And then they will sign a cheap LH relief pitcher. And we’ll see
1. Wetherholt – 2B (L)
2. Herrera – C (R)
3. Burleson – DH (L)
4. Contreras – 1B (R)
5. Gorman – 3B (L)
6. Winn – SS (R)
7. Church – LF (L)
8. Walker – RF (R)
9. Scott – CF (L)Saggese – IF (R), Fermin – IF/OF (R), Pozo-C/1B, Pages – C (R)
Prieto, Koperniak, Jordan, Crooks all on the 40 man and awaiting injury to get the call.
Yes I think Herrera has to get back behind the plate and they will carry 3 catchers because I expect Herrera only catches 3 games and then will DH 2 games moving Burleson to LF.Gray, Liberatore (L), McGreevy, Pallante, Mathews(L)
Leahy, Graceffo, Thompson(L), Granillo, Fernandez, ???(L), Svanson, O’BrienWith a long list of question marks of who gets the call when O’Brien gets hurt. Maybe Hence, Robberse, Naughton are healthy. Maybe they sign 2 cheap RH arms too and use Granillo and Fernandez going back and forth to Memphis as needed.
But I expect it to be a lot of the same as this season and hope they can get good play and convince Contreras and Gray to waive their no trade clauses at the deadline to move on and totally start over and keep trying to build the system up to compliment whatever they determine are the keepable pieces off the roster. I said before they could contend by next season if they had fully tore it down and started the rebuild last off season. With what they have done I think it will be 2028 at the earliest before they are contenders and if they don’t sell off this off season, and convince Contreras and Gray to go at the deadline, it could realistically be 2030 before they have a contending group.
I could see some of that happening C667. I doubt if Herrera is moved back to catcher though. He looks to be stuck at DH. The Cards certainly need to thin out some of the redunancies in the position player ranks though. One of the Nolans need to go. They don’t fit on the roster together. I imagine the Cards would rather trade Arenado but because of that pesky NTC it may be Gorman that goes. In fact I am just going to assume that all of the NTC guys stay until proven otherwise.
I like Burly’s bat but I don’t like his OF defense and he is blocked at 1B by Contreras and blocked at DH by Herrera so I could see the Cards trading Burly, Gorman, and Walker for pitching.
1. Nootbaar RF
2. Herrera DH
3. Donovan LF
4. Contreras 1B
5. Arenado 3B
6. Winn SS
7. Wetherholt 2B
8. Pages C
9. Scott CFBench- Crooks, Saggese, Church, veteran RH OF
If you don’t have a NTC, stay packed. Bill gets to endure his roster decisions a couple more seasons.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.