Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors – 2021

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  • #172984
    CardsFanInChiTown
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    What are you guys expecting for Reyes next year? I know my BP is a lot lower in the 9th with Gallegos…..

    With all of the walks, I just don’t see him being a top tier starter. Waino has shown the value of SP’s going late in games.

    #172985
    gscottar
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    Paid - Annual

    My expectation is that he will be similar to Oviedo as a starter. He won’t be able keep his pitch count down low enough to make it more than 4 or 5 innings.

    #172988
    stlcard25
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    Paid - Annual

    Part of me thinks that Reyes could tone down the velocity, pick up some more control and be a good starter. The other part of me thinks we are just snake bit on the super prospects that have managed to flame out for various reasons in the Mo era.

    I don’t think he’s nearly as hittable as Oviedo so I think he could be a viable starter in 2022. He’s probably a 5 inning guy though. Oviedo is probably destined for the pen unless something changes for the far better soon. His fastball seems a bit straight.

    #172994
    PadsFS
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    Free

    I think he’d do a lot better than putting him in as a fireman or closer. Also his BB% has actually dropped in the second half from 18 to 13%. I wonder if his injury had something to do with his first half wildness.

    #173123
    gscottar
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    Paid - Annual

    This is from Rick Hummel’s chat yesterday. I concur.

    Q: Edmundo Sosa or Paul DeJong at shortstop I 2022? What if neither turns out to be what you wanted? Is there anyone in the minor leagues showing promise at shortstop?

    A: The Cardinals have former first-round pick Delvin Perez about a year away from the big-league level at shortstop, so there is no need to give a free agent a five-year deal. Also, if you think Nolan Gorman can play second base — and the Cardinals do — then Tommy Edman could play shortstop, if it’s not Sosa or DeJong. That is Edman’s natural position. Shortstop isn’t even close to being an issue with the Cardinals.

    #173127
    stlcard25
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    Paid - Annual

    Still, the Cards need to do something to bolster the offense against RHP, whom they face about 70% or more of the time. The OPS against righties is .696, against lefties .778. Closing that gap (by moving the OPS against RHP up into the mid .700s at least) is going to have to happen or they’re not going to be a real contender.

    #173212
    gscottar
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    Paid - Annual

    Here is a guy I advocated for last winter. His salary this year: $2M.

    #173218
    stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Duvall has been good in Miami and Atlanta, no doubt. His 3.3 bWAR are the same as Harrison Bader, slightly ahead of Dylan Carlson (2.5) and solidly behind Tyler O’Neill (5.6). Given that, I’m just not sure where he’d have fit in our current OF. Still he’d have been nice to have when Bader and O’Neill were on the DL. If we are going after a 4th OF/DH type this winter it really needs to be a lefty.

    Edited to add…to be fair to Duvall he has been better against RHP this year than lefties, so perhaps he’d have been a better pickup than I thought. He will earn himself some dough this off-season. I could see a team like Milwaukee coveting him to go along with their defensive minded OF.

    #173227
    stlcard25
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    Paid - Annual

    Looking around the league for a suitor for Paul Dejong, if the Cards are so inclined…a team like Minnesota seems to make sense. They had a rough 2021 after expecting to contend and probably aren’t inclined to spend money. They have some contracts they’d probably like to offload that may not be entirely possible. They also have Andrelton Simmons at SS, whose defense may not be good enough to overcome his bat anymore. Dejong would be a good change of scenery candidate.

    In return, Taylor Rogers is probably in line for a salary bump for them. Likewise, Max Kepler has a contract pretty similar to Dejong and seems to be about what he is at this point…a decent fielder and low average/solid power corner OF (.810 OPS against RHP this year). It’s hard to say what the Cards might need to add to sweeten the deal, if anything. If we could get both Rogers and Kepler for Dejong and maybe a couple prospects (Rondon, Woodford, Nootbar, Torres types)? Even one or the other would be a good return for our flagging SS, and might work in a straight up trade.

    #173237
    thejager
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    Paid - Annual

    They have to add a bat, and not hope and pray DeJOng returns, or that Sosa can keep this up, OR that Perez is SO much of a lock for top end production that they don’t have to fix it.

    With a veteran team and two guys in their last hurrah, you don’t decide to go with your kids or hopes.

    They have money coming off the books, they have uncertainty at CF and SS and DH for offense production. Also, C should also be considered a big question mark for production due to his age.

    Depending on Sosa or Perez is a mistake
    Gorman should not be rushed nor should he be depended on for production
    Hoping DeJong figures it out again is what we did with Carp and it never worked out and made the offense stutter for 4yrs
    Knizner should not be depended on for offensive production, and Yadi’s value should not be dependent on hitting anyways and that is ok
    Bader should not be depended on for offensive production either, he is becoming a CF version of Yadi…you take empty bat for the defense…and that is ok

    Having 2 holes in the offense is fine…as long as they have platinum level defense and not .100 level hitters
    Having 4 holes that production is based on hopes and dreams is unacceptable…

    Also, Carp is coming off books…nto just money but supposed IMPACT of his position..an impact bat is what needs to be replaced…Gorman and PErez or Sosa or DeJOng getting better…or staying better…should all be BONUS

    Yes, Edman could play SS and we could look at a 2bman…but the impact SS are all out there. We have the money, the options are all pretty good and relatively young.

    Perez has had ONE good year in the minors, Sosa half of ONE good year in the majors, DeJong has downslid for 3yrs, Gorman just got to AAA this year… I apologize but depending on those 4 scenarios producing 2 STARTING level offensive production on a team that is veteran driven and supposed to be a contender is a huge mistake

    Spend the money on Seager (one bad injury a few years ago, and one freak hand breaking injury on a hit by pitch…and a few other short IL trips…so what?…that is FAR from being injury prone)

    OR get Arenado to get Story to come and join the fun. Story is a fine SS hits for power, and in the age of striking out all the time but hits HRs…he fits right in…

    Add a big SS bat… then you don’t have to depend on Bader and Yadi producing…while giving the farm or depth ONE spot to deal with concerning offensive production

    2 spots for top defense and no offense fine
    1 spot for rotating youth or bench trying to find best spot… fine

    Don’t go to the 4 out of 9 spots are hopes and dreams route for offensive prodcution….it is a mistake and wastes the investment in the veterans and really dangerous and susceptible to injury problems

    Being cheap and milking the fanbase to get more profit is the ONLY reason to not go out and get one of the big SS

    #173238
    thejager
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    25

    I like the idea of Rogers and Kepler

    I think you have to include a big prospect with DeJong though

    even with Rogers injury concern his value is pretty high as closer or non closer

    Kepler is similar…but injuries are a thing with him too…and even with that seems to be a better bat than DeJong..

    I think they’d be interested in arms, but also a bat

    DeJong + Rondon + Thompson + Burleson

    looks and feels like an overpay…but with way DeJong has played and hit…his value is def negative right now

    Our farm can absorb losing all of them…

    We provide them with good talent that is very close if not already ready to be up, all with pretty high ceilings…including a possible resurgent DeJong

    Adding Rogers and Kepler along with a Seager/Story etc. along with the vets coming back (Waino, McF, Garcia, Lester)…puts together a pretty imposing team, that can use youth to boost the team instead of being dependent on it

    Edman, Goldy, Seager, Arenado, Oneill, Carlson, Kepler(DH), Yadi, Bader
    Knizner, Nootbaar, Sosa, Gorman/Yepez

    Jack, Hud, Mik, Waino, Lester…Reyes, Libertore, Oviedo, Woodford
    Rogers, Gallegos, Genesis, Hicks, Helsley, McF, Garcia, Whitley, Woodford

    #174614
    mspaid
    Participant

    Free

    Jager:

    How do we get Seager or Story?

    #174637
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Simple: Write a check for over $200M. I hope we don’t.

    Give me Scherzer and Schwarber and we will be a World Series contender.

    #174646
    thejager
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    Nate…your question is just baiting, stop it

    Whether you or anyone else WANT to go after them is the point of this thread…talking about what you want or dont want to see and trying to justify it or defend it…or even point out your disagreements with it

    This thread is not for fighting or antagonism or baiting. Why you feel the need to try to attack and insult instead of having a real conversation is really disrespectful and mean.

    You think you would understand by now, we have known each other for years and you think somehow that behavior is endearing or makes people sit in awe of you is really misguided and sad

    This new format doesn’t allow me to NOT see your posts like in the past. It just shows me more and more how little you have grown…. you are allowed to think what you want…but when i say “grown” i mean grown to at least respect the other people on here…why you choose to create, have, and continue a long relationship of antagonism and disrespect is beyond me

    Grow up Nate

    and as must be stated unfortunately, i will not respond to any response to this, i expect you will which is your prerogative… but i wont participate again

    I will however continue to use this thread to post my ideas and thoughts of moves that could likely or unlikely be possible for the team without fear or threat of attack or antagonism by anyone. I will continue to do so ad nauseum as means to enjoy following the team and engage with this BUILT and RESPECTFUL community regardless whether they agree with me or not.

    #174648
    thejager
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    Paid - Annual

    GScott…why do you think Schwarber is a game changer? Max I get. But what about him makes us a no doubter for World Series victory.

    He seems a fine piece, but there is no doubt that Story or Seager OR Correa or Semien are better all around players.

    Max won’t cost $200m
    He will be expensive per year but it will be shorter deals…id guess 2yrs with 3rd option maybe

    $200m is not that much for the right talent and for the right amount of years…AND structured the right way

    Also, Schwarber creates a positional problem as his ability to play in the field to promote his value as anything other than a DH becomes problematic for the teams reliance on defense and team speed

    Having a DH that can be moved into the field to give flex on rest is a huge thing. I don’t see why we’d throw it away for Schwarber’s bat…maybe for a Castellenos or JD Martinez type bat…btu not Schwarber’s

    Gorman’s ability to play 2b and 3b (and hopefully eventually 1b and corner OF) makes him a great future candidate for the “DH” spot. which is only a “DH” spot if you cant play them in the field without sacrificing.

    A solid 3 position OF is a solid look too for that new starting hitter (DH) spot. But I think with Gorman AND DeJong and maybe even Sosa or Nootbaar or Yepez…we have a lot of internal candidates for an extra multipositional rotatable DH spot player where we can mix and match until Gorman matures or someone else does.

    What we dont have is an impact hitter at SS.

    There are at minimum 5 of them available. I don’t want them all. But they are available.

    We have money available and a team that has too much invested in veterans to not see this as an important 2-3yr window. Waiting on unproven talent is not a goal of a team with Yadi, Waino, Nolan, Goldy, and probably Lester or Happ

    A mid career high end SS and a veteran ace would be perfect…expensive…but built for NOW…and wouldn’t hurt any long term plans for the kids.

    And financially so what? We are wasting Goldy and Nolan if we don’t go for it…so it is spending money or wasting it either way

    -Max let’s say 60mil total 2yr with mutual 3rd year option of some kind (30m per)
    -Seager let’s say 200m total 6yr (33m per on avg but structure for 20-25 first year)

    We are sitting at about $111 right now after Yadi and Waino…

    add those two and it is about 160-170ish, even with a few little additions elsewhere and maybe a trade it doesn’t put us in a danger zone…especially when Waino and Yadi are really just 1yr deals, and yes some guys need extensions maybe or raises…

    point is…putting all your eggs in 2 baskets is risky…but only when it is risky players… Max and Story/Seager/Correa are not risky….unless you WANT to see them as risky…

    like Whit being too old to trade for the last 3-4yrs, or Castellos not being able to play RF, or Waino being too old, or Max being too old to invest so much, or Haniger being too old or too injured… or whatever…

    We all make our justifications…but with the cash coming off the books and the obvious needs the team has with the obvious targets it makes it tough sell for me to think we dont have the money or need….

    I will play with ideas all offseason and during the season….i just dont see Schwarber as a difference maker enough to make the offense all of a sudden be fixed… the pitchign was far better than the hitting this year…and that was pretty much without Hud, Jack, and Mik for most of the season

    our system and drafting produces solid pitchers pretty effectively and consistently…it does not produce middle order game changing bats…free agency and trade to me is about filling holes of what we cant fill internally…Gorman is no guarantee… and he is our closest guarantee we have…even if Libertore doeesn’t work out we have more options for guys that COULD

    Not trying to be insulting Gscott…just trying to explain my thoughts all the way through…in all likelihood your scenario or probably closer to what may happen….but then again trading for Arenado and having them give us 50m on top whiel only losing Gomber and Montero basically…well i dont think a lot of us thought that was possible either…which is what makes this thread so fun

    anyways….long as always…sorry but not sorry 😛

    Go Cards!

    #174650
    mspaid
    Participant

    Free

    Jager:

    Did you step on a nail or something? Relax. I don’t see where I was hateful. I asked a simple question. You propose trades and signing ideas that are sound improvements to the roster. But they need to be realistic…it needs to be something the Front Office will actually do. Seager or Story will probably get 25-30 million. I don’t think I’m off too much there. Is Junior going to increase the payroll by a large amount? If not then most of your ideas go down the drain…sadly I think. You seem to know what the team needs and what it would take to fill those voids but unless it is reasonable for Junior to do it then what is the point. That was my question. Try not to lose it if someone questions you..it’s a bad habit.
    Ready? Go Cardinals!!!!

    #174654
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    GScott…why do you think Schwarber is a game changer? Max I get. But what about him makes us a no doubter for World Series victory.

    Schwarber is a power hitting LH bat capable of hitting 40 HR’s and won’t demand a 5 or 6 year deal. That is why I would want him. I am tired of the long term contracts. We don’t need any more unless we think they are a slam dunk. Story, Correra, and Semien are RH bats which we don’t really need. Seager is a LH bat and a good player, but as I have said numerous times before, his injury history would give me pause. You can claim it is a fluke or whatever but hurt is hurt. Some guys are prone to it. We can’t afford to pay a dude $200M to only play 100 games in a season. Sorry, I would not do that.

    #174657
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    As I mentioned in a different thread the Cardinals rarely get elite talent through free agency. It is usually from the farm system or by trade. If we are looking to become a world series contender from a big trade I would go after Jose Ramirez of Cleveland. He is always a MVP candidate, can play 2B or DH, and is on a team friendly deal for two more years. Obviously we would have to give up a ton of talent to get him but I would explore something like that before I wrote a $200M check for one of the free agents.

    #174679
    Cards667
    Participant

    Free

    “Looking around the league for a suitor for Paul Dejong”

    They aren’t going to get much in return, just needs a change and his salary freed up. I think Washington could fit. They resigned Escobar, Kieboom hasn’t lived up to the hype. But DeJong could shift to 3B easily for them or possibly even 2B. Minnesota could be a fit too. Whoever he goes I think they need to send Justin Williams with him and get whatever they can, just move on from them, but I do wish DeJong well as I’ve always liked him he just doesn’t appear to fit going forward.

    #174682
    Cards667
    Participant

    Free

    Trade: DeJong, Williams for whatever

    1. Edman 2B (S)
    2. Goldschmidt 1B (R)
    3. Seager SS (L)
    4. Arenado 3B (R)
    5. O’Neill LF (R)
    6. Carlson RF (S)
    7. Gorman DH (L) 2B/3B back up
    8. Molina C (R)
    9. Bader CF (R)

    Sosa IF (R)
    Yepez 1B/3B/LF/RF (R)
    Nootbaar OF (L)
    Knizner C (R)

    Scherzer, Flaherty, Hudson, Wainwright, Mikolas

    Woodford, Reyes, Helsley, McFarland(L), Garcia, Cabrera(L), Hicks, Gallegos
    _______________________________________
    Plummer CF (L)
    Perez SS (R)
    Dean DH (R) – OF/1B
    Burleson LF (L)
    Baker 1B (R)
    Donovan 3B (L) – Utility
    Herrera C (R)
    Robertson 2B (R) – IF
    Capel RF (L)

    Dunn 2B (L), Ascanio IF (R), Lopez UTIL (L), Hurst OF (L), Sanchez C (R)

    Liberatore (L), Oviedo, Thompson (L), Rondon, Thomas (L)

    Zeuch, Parsons, Elledge?, Jones, Warner (L), Quezada, Waddell (L), Fernandez, Whitley

    My AAA could be way off, I was just doing it for my own look at depth. I probably forgot a few and who knows who could be DFA’d and claimed or released, such as Elledge already being DFA. I don’t know that I want Seager, but another bat is needed and probably LH bat. His injury history is a concern and his defense is probably not as good as DeJong and especially not as good as Story, but Story out of Colorado scares me as does the massive drop in his throwing strength over the last few years. But I was just throwing out an idea of making the lineup deeper and adding a LH quality bat and make every effort possible to make the most competitive team is what is surely the last year of Molina and Wainwright.

    #174683
    Cards667
    Participant

    Free

    I think Seager gets 7 years and $200 million ($28.5 mil/yr avg), with an opt out after 2023, and probably an 8th year option. I don’t know that he’s worth it with the injury history, and he could command more, but he’s a really good bat and they could really use him.
    As for Scherzer I think he could possibly break the record for avg annual value. I think he could see a 2 yr $70 million contract with a 3rd year option around $30 million and a $6 million buyout. Meaning it would take a minimum $76 million guaranteed. Cole is at $36 million a year, so my contract for Scherzer wouldn’t break the record, but put him at it…But I’d love to see him in Cardinal red and them make every effort to send Molina and Wainwright out with a ring. As hard as it is to buy a ring (San Diego) they’ve got to make every effort to go for it in 2022.

    #174687
    PadsFS
    Participant

    Free

    If we can’t get anything back for DeJong, then why trade him? Sosa, while having an amazing season, certainly doesn’t look like a permanently fixture at short.

    I hope they let Edman play some more SS this year and rotate the 3 around some so that Gorman may have a spot around July ish.

    Edman looks like the one that’s going to last here, but I’m not ready to give up on DeJong and it’s Sosa spot to lose in 22.

    #174688
    stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Dejong has been worth almost 13 WAR by either measure since the start of his career, including around a win and a half this year in part time duty. Some team would give up something for him, even if we are down on him. I’m not sure if he would benefit from the change of scenery, but you can’t help but think that he’d be an Oakland/Minnesota sort of rebuild project where he’d put up an .800 OPS for them if we traded him.

    #174689
    PadsFS
    Participant

    Free

    Cards667 – didn’t Bauer get 40M a year?

    #174702
    Cards667
    Participant

    Free

    You’re right. I forgot about him. I was thinking Cole was still the highest AAV pitcher. I knew Trout was high and I also forgot the Mets gave Lindor $34/year for 10 years. But Bauer was 40 in 2021 and 45 for 2022. So Scherzer could use that as a structure for his. Seager is definitely going to use that Lindor contract to base his. Which puts him out of the question for me. There is no way I’d give him 10 years or 34/yr with the injury history and defense that isn’t going to stick at SS for the life of the contract.

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