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I would assume Leone will be non-tendered right? Unless they can find a trade partner before they have to. He’s projected between 1.5 and 2M, if they are on such a constrained budget (which I still think is ridiculous and unacceptable and nonsense and cheap and greedy, etc) they should let him go or trade him for a box of cracker jacks to the AL.
i think that is about right for Leone
He had plenty of chances this past year to step up and really never did, feels kind of like letting Mayers go…it’s not that he doesnt have value and upside, but for the cost i don’t see how he stays
Brett Anderson could be a possible rotation guy. He’s a lefty FA and only made $1.5M last year on a one year deal. Injury history, but he had a solid 2019. Not the #2 starter that the rotation would ideally add. Seems more likely to me than Wheeler or MadBum given their compensation pick or RYU or Keuchel ($$$). The FO doesn’t want the 2020 team payroll to be any higher than 2019.
Jager, in my comparison from a few days ago, one was Merrifield and the other was Arozarena. Both of the figures are their averages from the last 2 years. One point you didn’t show is that Merrifield has a 75% stolen base percentage over the last couple of years. Arozarena could do that, too.
While I would like to have Merrifield, I think the cost to acquire will be astronomical. Soler and Merrifield are the Royals’ 2 best trade chips and they will want to restock the team when trading either of them. The other thing that bothers me about Merrifield is that he will be 31 in January. He is at that point in his career where the numbers should start sliding. It should only be a little over the next 1-2 years but it will be a little more after that.
I think Anderson is a decent look, gotta be cheap though with that injury history.
—Forsch
The thing is, Arozarena has not proven he can do anything at the major league level. And this teams needs proven contributors. they have far too much lined up with HOPE for a player to turn it around or HOPE for a player to finally figure it out. While you get a Wong every now and then you end up with a lot of Carps and Fowlers. Even Goldy to some degree. Carp has had 3 straight seasons of poor and inconsistent play. Getting crazy hot for a month or two that sways your stats in one direction is just not good. Goldy has been showing it for the last 2yrs now.
I agree Merrifield is 31, but so what? At the price he would be paid, even as a super utility bench player he would be a steal. All of his tools will not go away by 33. Even his sliding number woudl be pretty much the best on the Cardinals.
I like a lto of our kids, but the only way to figure out whether they will work is to play them, and with the glut of veterans in the why, we can’t do that with our kids. And it would mean potentially fielding a team that could be very bad if the kids dont play well.
For me, with our OF depth, I’d trade some good prospects and the HOPE of them achieving them for Merrifield’s next 3 years without hesitating.
I agree it would be expensive, but Merrifield and Soler are controllable and cheap, and proven, and that is what you should give up prospects for IMO.
I’d take Chapman right now over Gorman. Look what happened with Reyes right? We held him so tight and then he fell apart, and now we are in hope and pray for his future. It made sense to hold him tight, it really did, but his value was sky high after that first season. We could have leveraged him pretty high had we wanted to target something more sure.
I mean we went out and signed Fowler that offseason, we very well could have leveraged Reyes for an upgrade in the OF instead of Fowler had we been so bold.
Hindsight is 20/20
BUT…it can tell us some things…Cardinals fade in general when it comes to being bold… we had every reason to go the extra for Max…didnt…sign Robert…didnt…Gurriels…didnt…coudlnt get Price…coudlnt get Heyward……instead ending up with scondary choices and far more compromises because we overvalue our internal prospects in fear that we give up on someone that is great…or we spend 2 dollars too much
The early 2000’s successful Cardinals werent all homegrown talent…they were built on a few homegrown players, and then bold and shrewd big trades for good players from other organizations…
Edmond, Renteria, Rolen, Holliday, even Carp and Waino werent ours…. Woody Williams, Suppan, Lohse etc etc
Yeah we didnt have much of a farm…but we were still a great team because we used those young farm players to get us proven good players…and sure…we lost Adam Kennedy but not much else really.Who cares about how deep your farm is if you are making good moves at the top.
I love having Jack come up, CMart, and Reyes…and Hud… but what have we done with all that homegrown talent? Wacha and Miller and Weaver now Reyes and CMart? It’ all too much
Instead of holding onto the whole farm…thin it out greatly… identify a few pieces and hold them, but dont be afraid to trade your BRyan Anderson’s when they have good value just because.
We are far too precious on our prospects, but you only do that to them if you are not confident in identifying outside talent. JOcketty knew what to look for. Moz is smart, but lacks the boldness especially after he has attained some success.
The Goldy move is touted as being amazing, but it really wasnt. Goldy 2 yrs ago looked just like Carp, terrible and then turned it on late. HE had already lost a lot of his speed too and he is no spring chicken either. Yet we hear little about GOldy’s age being a detriment. I give credit that we offloaded Weaver and Kelly who seemed to haev no future and Young was always a hope more than a reality in how good he coudl be. It was a good trade for us, but the boldness went out the window when you re-sign him after such a bad year. Adn then you go and re-up Carp who had just had 2 inconsistent years.I liek Goldy, but i liked Goldy 4 years ago…and we are paying him as if he will turn back the clock,
Id rather have given up a lor MORE for Goldy 4 yrs ago than get him with one year and then feel it necessary to validate that trade by re-upping him without showing his past year was not an aberration (which it wasnt)
im babbling…
trades are good, and just as risky as free agency or depending on prospects…
Jager, I am fairly certain that to get Merrifield, the Cardinals will have to give up either Carlson or Gorman plus another high quality prospect. To then include Soler, they would want someone like O’Neill and a quality pitcher. Merrifield does not upgrade the team enough to give up that much.
I know that Arozarena has not proven anything at the major league level. However, that comparison shows that Merrifield is not an elite player that you give up a lot for. He is a very good player that you acquire if the cost isn’t too much.
I would give up Gorman for Matt Chapman. It appears that they are about the same player except Chapman is a much better fielder. The only thing to keep in mind about Chapman is that he is not a great contact hitter. His batting average has never been very high and he strikes out a bunch.
I agree Merrifield is 31, but so what? At the price he would be paid, even as a super utility bench player he would be a steal. All of his tools will not go away by 33. Even his sliding number woudl be pretty much the best on the Cardinals.
We signed Fowler heading into his age 31 season too and look how that turned out. Just say no to trading for Whit. If we are going to move top prospects like Gorman or Carlson, it had better be for someone better than an older Kolten Wong.
I’d like to recruit a few of you gents and ladies to join my “Sign Drew Pomeranz” bandwagon…..
As a reliever, over 102 games, and 115.2 IP, he has 10.9 K/9, 2.72 ERA and a 1.089 WHIP (undervalued stat after suffering through a drunken CMart season).
He’s projected at 2/16M on MLBTraderumors, the teams they pick are not good, but they are typically close on the dollars and years.
As a reliever, and seeing him in person twice in Milwaukee, he could be the younger, not quite as good version of Andrew Miller 4 years ago.
3yr/18M with a year 4 vesting option at 9M/1M buyout would be a more than fair offer and keep the AAV down, Dewallet needs to make his $200M a year so I’m not sure they would add such a nice luxury when they are already paying Cecil at roughly the same amount.
Do I have any takers to join my bandwagon?
CFICT, I would be OK with that.
While we are at it, why not make a trade for Lindor. Knizner, DeJong, Leone, Cecil and O’Neill for Lindor and Kluber.
I see that there will be quite a roster crunch after next season. Carlson, Rondon, Elledge, Whitley, Oviedo, Herrera, Torres, and Julio Rodriguez all would be potentially Rule 5 eligible. The first 5 I can see possibly being added sometime before the 2020 season ends since they have at least a decent amount of AA experience or better. Granted Oviedo and Rodriguez need to be more successful at AA.
This will likely cause continued aggressive placements. Also, GIngery has 2 years before he is eligible, but was supposedly going to be a fast mover when drafted. He’ll have to make up for lost time at some point.
I posited a page or so back WHY Whit is so valuable, and i havent heard anything to make me change my opinion.
Comparison to Fowler? Come on, Fowler at his 30 years didnt put up anything like what Whit did.
Whit CAN play 2b btu he also is a whiz in the OF too, CF included.
Wong costs 10mil this year, Whit is less one half of that, and only goes up to under 7 next year, then falls to less than 3mil then a year of team option at less than 7. Wong is nice and all, but for value to performance, Whit trumps him on all fronts, save perhaps defense at 1 position, though that is mitigated the versatility of Whit
He may be expensive in prospects, but i dont think he requires Carlson or Gorman. I think a package with Herrera in there could go a long way with PErez’s injuries recently and his contract ending in a few years. Having a cheap replacement for him that can hit might be just what they are looking for. HE is FAR from enough though, but adding in solid players also coudl go along way. ONeill or BAder, POnce or Woodford or Gomber, maybe Rondon… MOntero or Nunez, Randy ARozarena or AdGarcia, or Williams, or Capel, or Thorres…plenty to choose from…heck even JMart woudl be pretty valuable for them…
i do agree trying to get Soler too would be a bit greedy though…
Chapman’s K rate isnt that bad and he still hit 250 which woudl put him in among our teams best (sarcastic)—
With all the hype POmeranz has been getting I doubt he comes cheap at all. I like him a lot, but he will require a Brett Cecil deal..and i dont think anyone wants to throw that out there with what Cecil did…not to mention POmeranz was pretty effective, but his transition was very recent…and perhaps a book is just not out there on him as a reliever yet…i think i’d wait to see f he is for real…let someone else gamble on that…if it is a one year deal..or 1 with a team option…sure…but i think he gets 3 minimum…And to be honest…Miller, Webb, Genesis looked pretty solid as a lefty grouping…
jager, Chapman’s K rate has only been lower than Carpenter’s K rate 1 year. There have been a lot of posters who have complained for the last 2 years about Carpenter’s K rate and batting average. Chapman’s batting average has been only slightly better. I am not saying I don’t want Chapman. I am merely pointing out that he is not the great offensive threat that some are considering him to be. Where he is most valuable is with his glove.
Comparison to Fowler? Come on, Fowler at his 30 years didnt put up anything like what Whit did.
Fowler age 30: .276/.393/.447, 123 OPS+, 129 wRC+, 4.1 bWAR, 4.6 fWAR
Merrifield age 30: .302/.348/.463, 112 OPS+, 110 wRC+, 4.0 bWAR, 2.6 fWAR
You’re right, Fowler was better. 😁
I think you’re dreaming if you think that the Royals will trade their most valuable piece without a top prospect being involved. They’ll ask for a Carlson or Gorman and get it from some unsuspecting team who will then reap the “benefits” of Kolten v.1.0’s decline years while watching their top prospect playing for the Royals.
Just say no to Whit. He’s fool’s gold, IMO.
And to be honest…Miller, Webb, Genesis looked pretty solid as a lefty grouping…
I agree with you. I don’t dislike the idea of Pomeranz, but I think the bullpen will be fine either way.
Stl…yeah i figured that’d bite me on the Fowler thing…though i didnt look it up…using memory…my bad…
though…as i said before, that line you put is far from all that goes into a player…id still swap Fowler for Whit Merrifield at age 30 any day of the week
as for him being fools gold… i think that is BS…if you were buying him after 2 yrs ago…maybe…but he backed up his previous seasons with an equally as great season last year…
and i disagree about him absolutely needing Gorman or Carlson….i think of course they start with that ask…anyone would… but that is why you bring up other options once it starts…we have plenty of value for a team trying to stay cheap and forward looking
we wont agree on Merrifield…that’s fine…
back around to Seattle…
Gordon + Haniger
Gordon is a leadoff solution and is still elite at that and his wheels are top5 at worst, and is owed some money, but it isnt crazy money. He has a had a few injuries, but when he plays he plays well.
Haniger is buy low, but is 5 tool and while a bit old to be coming out, his injury last year was tragic not chronic.
They may not be the booming solutions, but they might be had a little cheaper if we are willing to take on Gordon’s money…maybe we put JMart in that deal to help a little with the finances on our end. Im not exactyl sure what we’d have to give but i think it could be done without including Knizner/Gorman/Carlson/Herrera
A future OF of Carlson, Gordon, Haniger is pretty nice…
I think the offensive upgrade of Haniuger and Gordon would mitigate potential Yadi slipping, Carp being done, Fowler flailing,and Ozuna leaving. Especially with the possible early addition of Carlson and Edman maturing…
It isnt fancy, but it would make us better IMO…it doesnt give us a lefty in the rotation, but there are options for that I’d think
Former Marlins president rips Boras…
Boras has no clue how a team or a business operates. Is he taking average ticket price into account? Revenue sharing? Taxes. On and on. Just trying to make market for new set of clients. Same old tired story. Stick to manipulating owners. https://t.co/vTCDRTrkDK
— David P. Samson (@DavidPSamson) November 13, 2019
Unless the Cards can get an absolute haul for Wong, what is with the Whit idea? To be an OF? The lineup is undoubtedly pathetic and more importantly “weak” as it is. The OF and 3B are the only spots they can potentially find a 4…a 5 and a 6 spot bat. If the Cards had a huge hole at 2B, then I’m all for it. They have two guys (Wong and Edman) that are above or well above average options for 2B. As an OF, or whatever is being suggested, and what it would take in prospects to get him, I don’t like the idea.
Unlikely to happen but an interesting read.
Whit basically split time in the OF (CF/RF mostly) and 2b (with a hint of 1b and DH thrown in)
We have no leadoff man. We didnt have one all year. Fowler and Carp are failures at it by now.
All of our hitters would do better with men on in front of them, and our on base champs arent working anymore.
IMO. We need a true leadoff man that can be a menace on the basepaths and get on base via hits. There is no anxiety on the mound when you have a slow guy get al eadoff walk who isnt going to burn you. But a guy that gets a hit or double off you early puts fear in your for making the same mistake again, but this time to Goldy, or DeJOng, or whomever.
Getting on via walk is a pitcher making a mistake that they think is THEIR fault, a hitter getting on base via a hit is a hitter or team hitting strategy that BEATS you at your strategy. We need that right now.
All we seem to have is a bunch of guys waiting for a mistake instead of guys going out there to attack and beat the pitchers. guys that hit for high AVG IMO do that. You can’t sit back and get hits, you have to attack. We dont have anyone like that, except maybe Edman and in a perfect world Randy. But neither have shown anything close to what Whit has done over the last 3 years.
Merrifield was not an AS for nothing, he didnt get MP votes for nothing. He didnt lead the league in hits and triples because his eyes are going bad and his speed has diminished.
He plays all over, plays well on a team that doesnt play well, and as i said one of the biggest reasons i like him is his character as seen through his play. not only did he play well on bad team going no where. He also played EVERY SINGLE GAME for bad team and still played at a high level. A guy playign well could easily take a day off here or there especially with a team so out of it. But he didnt, he kept playing and playing well and keeping himself in great condition TO play well. He has only missed 4 games in the past 2 years. We are all bothered that DeJong needed more time off, but this guy didnt need any time off and he played well. He is the Yadi of hitting and playing.
Do i think it will happen? Not at all. But I see him as perfect fit for the Cardinals. In every way. From contract length and age and money, to position and flex, to consistent production and performance, to role. And then add durability and character.
Maybe you arent enamored with him as I seem to be, that is fine. But I see no reason why he wouldn’t fit and fix several problems the team has. And there is no guarantee wong is here after next year, he is a FA, AND he is making a lot of money this next year and there is no way he asks for less (which is what Whit makes) AND outside of a bit better defense at 2b (mitigated by Wongs in ability to play elsewhere) he is not as good a player as Whit in any regard.
Is he a one stop shop solution for the offseason… not at all, but he would go along way to fixing the offense.
Maybe a Merrifield and Soler deal alone would work. Power bat, plus leadoff, both have control.
Then find a lefty for the rotation.
Heck, maybe Duffy from the Royals is an option, he is on a contract i am sure they’d like to move and Duffy still could have some upside on a better team. And maybe taking that salary (to help keep the prospects down on the trade part would help make it work). Duffy is still controlled as well even on that contract.
Whit, Soler, Duffy
for
?One stop shopping across the state?
Maybe you even inquire on Hunter Dozier for 3b too? that kind of trade would require big prospects but might be worth it for fixing the problems with the offense. Merry, Doz, and Soler are no slouches. Duffy has shown flashes of brilliance which is why he got that contract, a change of scenery could go a long way as we have seen before with players. It would also put us into a position to look for less in return on dumps of Fowler or Carp if necessary. But he relatively cheap costs of those acquired even with Duffy would mitigate any major salary implications.
Whit has a career .344 OBP. Carpenter and Dexter were at .334 and .346 this past year. Is that really any better, especially for what it’ll cost us (Carlson or Gorman)? Does it really matter whether they get on via base hit or walk? I don’t see Whit as a solution to the leadoff issue.
(Personally, I’d like to see Arozarena get a spot in the OF and become the leadoff guy, or just give Wong the leadoff position).
No Merrifield was not an all star for nothing. He was an all star because the rules say every team has to have a representative!
Wong is here for 2 more years if the Cards want him as they hold an option for 2021.
Well i disagree for all the reasons i have laid out. I just havent been convinced by any of the rebuttals. which is fine.
Even in comparison to Wong, he is a lot better IMO, and Wong is 29 and costs 10million people it’s not like he is on 500k contract and is 24, plus if we are talking about staying healhty and contributing Wong has no history of staying healthy either, and while people can say MErrifield MAY get slower or lose a step they have no proof of it at all yet. Durability of Merrifield is elite. Wong is good when he is out there,but he isnt out there all the time. Merrifield even had a higher range factor at 2b than Wong.
I dont think Merrifield will be had by us, but i havent seen anything to convince me he isnt a great option and target.
—
Without a move for a proven leadoff man, i agree Wong is our best bet. And i doubt Randy is given any kind of opportunity to play let alone play enough to give him an opportunity to lead off.
Fowler will start, Thomas or Oneill will start depending on who hits better, and Bader or Carlson as well. MAYBE Randy gets a shot at CF until Carlson is ready and IF Bader shows no signs of improving.
bUt looking at the regulars Wong is our best bet, yet everyone seems scared to give it to him.
He was by far our best all around hitter last year.
No Merrifield was not an all star for nothing. He was an all star because the rules say every team has to have a representative!
I call that the Paul DeJong rule.
Will Smith is off the board and 8 of the 10 eligible players turned down the qualifying offer. Jake Odorizzi and Jose Abreu accepted.
As compensation for the loss of LHP Will Smith, who signed a three-year deal with the #Braves, the #SFGiants will receive a 2020 #MLBDraft pick following Competitive Balance Round B.
Full list of qualifying offers: https://t.co/FbSsmEoVyK pic.twitter.com/VkoOXEgPnK
— MLB Pipeline (@MLBPipeline) November 14, 2019
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