November 7, 2019 at 6:41 pm #113949
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I am going to argue with this nonsense.November 7, 2019 at 7:10 pm #113950
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Not only is DeWitt not cheap, but he took an organization that was in the pits and made it into one of the most of respected organizations in all of MLB. And along the way he built a new stadium for his team and for the St. Louis community, and he paid for it without taxpayer assistance. St. Louis has taken hit after hit of negative publicity for decades. DeWitt’s involvement with the St. Louis Cardinals has mitigated some of that.
That’s my comment. I’m not going to argue about it either.November 7, 2019 at 7:28 pm #113951
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It is a good organization.November 7, 2019 at 10:41 pm #113954
I, in no way shape or form said that it is not a good organization, I said that they could very easily expand payroll to be able to afford a few luxuries and be in the 190-200 area and still increase the bottom line by 100-200M a year.
They have been in the top three of MLB most profitable teams for the past decade, and one could argue that those numbers are not proven facts. But when you have the fan support in the stadium, plus ballpark Village, plus the TV revenue, MLB revenue, etc. the facts are there that the numbers are correct. DeRich is only growing his personal numbers.
Consider the St. Louis Cardinals baseball organization numbers, plus all the other cardinal related ventures numbers that he figured out how to politic and make money off of.
If a person on here thinks they can’t get close to 200M in payroll and “him” still “make” $50M and increase the value of Ownership by $150M, you’ve been Dewitted…..
if you’re ok with $160 payroll and no offense again and one solid starting pitcher, you’ve been… DewittedNovember 8, 2019 at 9:00 am #113967
Whether the Cardinals are cheap or not should not be the argument. I would submit that they aren’t really cheap. A payroll in the 160-170 range is a healthy budget for them. Could it be higher and they still be profitable? I am sure it could but that isn’t the most important thing to consider to me.
The real argument is are they spending their money wisely? I think an argument could be made that no they aren’t. The big contracts they have on the books such as Carp, Fowler, Yadi, Mikolas, Goldy, Miller, and CMart were only moderately productive in 2019, at least compared to their salary.
A lot of the production came from mid tier pricing like Wong or the absolute cheap contracts of Flaherty, Hudson, Gallegos, Brebbia, Gant, DeJong, and Edman.
And then of course there is the absolute dead money of Cecil and Leake.
For a team like the Cardinals to be successful on a regular basis they must get high production from their big investments. They aren’t going to overspend to cover their mistakes like the Cubs, Red Sox, and others do.
Guess what? Big financial mistakes have consequences and unfortunately we are going to pay the price for those mistakes. Our only hope is that the expensive guys can rebound and the young, cheaper guys can carry the load until these albatross contracts are off the books.
November 8, 2019 at 9:09 am #113970
- This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by gscottar.
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I don’t care how much money DeWitt has to spend and I don’t understand why anybody else cares about it. I just want a winning team that has a chance to win the World Series. What I hate is a player who signs a long term contract and then either lays down on the job for lack of motivation, or who gets past his prime or is constantly injured with something like plantar faciitis (i.e.AP), but is still collecting millions upon millions of the fans’ money. So that’s why I don’t want Rondon or any of the pitchers for 7 to 10 years. More often than not, those kinds of contracts don’t work out. Also, I would like to see ticket prices come down. They’re too high. The only way that is going to happen is by cutting costs.
I just had an idea about what to do about clandestine profits and private income statements. The fans could start a movement to force DeWitt to sell the ball club to St.Louis City Hall. Then anything to do with the club’s earnings would be in the public domain. The politicians there would have to produce a wining team or they would lose elections. There could even be tax increases to cover payroll so that the city could sign any free agent at any cost. How does that sound? Pretty good idea?November 8, 2019 at 9:11 am #113972
Again, instead of focusing on the overall payroll amount focus on where the payroll is spent.November 8, 2019 at 9:37 am #113981
Nothing wrong with both respecting the job ownership has done and wishing they would do more.November 8, 2019 at 9:37 am #113982
I dunno Forsch… it’s really not enough information for me to make a decision
there is more to a player than those 4 stats
I have no idea who is each, but for me Whit is worth the investment (even if he isnt one of those) because:
-WAR…3.9, 5.5, 4.0 last three years
-played every game of 2019 and missed 4 in 2018
-can play all OF, 1b and 2b
-true all around leadoff man
-34, 45, 20 SBs per year last 3 years
-.283, .288, .304, .302 AVG last 4 years
-270, 275, 315 TB last 3 years
-16 HR, and 74 RBI
-MVP votes in 2018 and AS in 2019 (could get MVP votes this year, but unannounced at this point)
-led the league in hits with 206, and had 192 last year
-led the league in triples
-played well on a bad team, and as i said above didnt miss a game even in the light of being on bad team
-is 30 and controlled through his age 34 season (with buyout of 750k at 33)
-salary coming up: 5m, 6.75m, 2.75m (yes), 10.5 (though club buyout of 750k)
Are there other players with some similar stats? perhaps
But above you have the epitome of what we dont have, a solid all around contributor who does not hurt you in any part of the game. tough, dependable, versatile, power,speed, avg…and cheap AND you can cut ties when he may be on his downward turn…
Going big for a guy at the top of his game, from age 30-34 for about 14.5m total is exactly what you want. Especially when he fits what the Cardinals are missing.
Whit plus a power bat with .275 AVG would be just what we are lackingNovember 8, 2019 at 11:03 am #113988
I agree, it is not the absolute amount they spend, but how they maximize resources.
If you are going to sign “franchise icon” contracts or throw away money on past-their-prime free agents, then you shouldn’t artifically say “we have the 6th hightest payroll in baseball,” so therefore, we are done.
If you are going to impose an artificial payroll constraint, then you have to adopt a ruthless mindset to make it work, like the A’s and Rays. That means no more “franchise icon” contracts, no more “we hope this reliever with a 4+ ERA last year will rebound and we are going to give him $7 million per year” and no more Dexter Fowler panic contracts because they have a hole in the organization.November 8, 2019 at 11:12 am #113989
An actual idea for what the thread is about…. I just read that the Mets are going to be in the market for a CF, and I’ve also read on here that a lot of folks would love to take a flier on Edwin Diaz.
I absolutely love watching Bader in the field, especially in person, that dude can fly! However, defense, base running and hitting are all attributes you need to have in a position player. He’s great at 2 (defense and running the bases), but Lane Thomas might be, slightly not as excellent in the field, but in my opinion, the CF job is between him and Arozarena in ST. From nothing more than the eye test Thomas looks like he could be really good at the plate.
Bader and Gant for Diaz would would be giving them a cheap option at a clear area of need and a BP replacement, and unlike the Cardinals, their lineup is decent enough to allow for Bader being in the lineup everyday.November 8, 2019 at 11:35 am #113990
Bader and Gant for Diaz would would be giving them a cheap option at a clear area of need and a BP replacement, and unlike the Cardinals, their lineup is decent enough to allow for Bader being in the lineup everyday.
I would do that deal instantly but I am pretty sure the Mets would want more than that for Diaz.November 8, 2019 at 12:34 pm #113993
Gscott, what else do you think it would take?
I included Gant due to him still having some value, but we’ve seen over and over where a reliever gets over worked and then falls off. Kevin Seigrist is the perfect example of my worries about Gant moving forward.November 8, 2019 at 12:48 pm #113994
I think everyone saw the deficiency in hitting from BAder all year including the Mets, I think they may want Randy + Gant + another hitting prospect…Thorres or Capel?
If they value BAder more, then I get it, but I could see them looking at Randy’s stats from last year in the minors and getting more excited than a #8 hitter at best right now with GG level defense.
I do think Gant has value, and in a swing role or set up or #5 he could really fill a lot of potential holes for any team acquiring him and be flexible enough to fill holes unseen later
however IMO…i’d rather spend my time fixing the offense instead of the pen which is probably out least need right now
having said that… a deal for MCNeil or Conforto + Diaz (or maybe all 3) would be intriguing
November 8, 2019 at 8:24 pm #113999
- This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by thejager.
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Bader would have local appeal. Didn’t we nix a Wheeler for Bader deal? The Cards would need more than a relief pitcher for a 5 or 6 war CFer. I know he didn’t produce that, but that had to be their expectation if they didn’t take that trade.November 9, 2019 at 7:48 am #114005
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Bader is a New York area product. CMartinez would fit the Met’s culture. Add them in a package together for Wheeler.November 9, 2019 at 8:07 am #114011
Since Wheeler is now a free agent, the Mets would surely accept that offer!
Even if Wheeler takes the qualifying offer, which seems unlikely, the Cards would give up as many as eight player control years for one.November 9, 2019 at 10:58 am #114032
Gscott, what else do you think it would take?
I included Gant due to him still having some value, but we’ve seen over and over where a reliever gets over worked and then falls off. Kevin Seigrist is the perfect example of my worries about Gant moving forward.
Supposedly last July there was talk of a deal for Bader or O’Neill plus a prospect for two months of Wheeler and the deal didn’t get done. Considering that Diaz has three years of control I am assuming it would take more than Bader and Gant. We would probably have to throw someone like Montero in.November 9, 2019 at 11:56 am #114046
I also thought a trade with the Mets would be in order if the Mets are unable to get JBJ…
Maybe we could trade Tyler O’Neill or Lane Thomas for Adrian Hernandez + Stephen Gonsalves???
In terms of a bad contract swap, they could trade Fowler for Jeurys Familia. That would actually save the Cardinals about $5 million this year…November 9, 2019 at 12:30 pm #114049
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I am very glad Ascanio, Santos, Ramirez, and Derian Gonzalez were resigned. Ascanio, Santos and Ramirez showed intriguing improvement at the end of their 2019 seasons. Derian Gonzalez darn near made the team out of Spring Training a couple years ago, and prior to injury had a very live arm. He could be the Junior Fernandez OF 2020.November 9, 2019 at 12:42 pm #114051
I temporarily forgot that qualifying offer players (if they accept) have no-trade protection until June 15, so a Wheeler trade this winter would be almost impossible.November 10, 2019 at 12:34 pm #114073
Something random to keep in mind looking out to 2021, I did not realize that Andrew Miller’s 3rd year option ($12M) will automatically vest if he has 110 appearances in 2019 and 2020. Meaning he only needs 37 appearances this year for it to be automatically picked up.
This has nothing to do with any other discussions taking place, just something I was completely unaware of and I’m sure others were too.November 10, 2019 at 1:34 pm #114076
. . . . Andrew Miller’s 3rd year option ($12M) will automatically vest if he has 110 appearances in 2019 and 2020. Meaning he only needs 37 appearances this year for it to be automatically picked up.
Plus, you aren’t counting his postseason appearances (he had six in 2019). Not sure if they count, but maybe they do?November 10, 2019 at 9:07 pm #114089
Good point Euro, I doubt if they do, but who knows on the verbiage. Basically he would, at a minimum, have to miss half the year.November 11, 2019 at 1:56 pm #114124
Just re-hashing a few ideas in one place to see them
-Chapman + Mateo
Hudson + Gorman + Gant + Genesis + Munoz + Randy
-Merrifield + Soler
Oneill + Bader + Ponce + JMart + Thorres
Fowler + 1/2 salary + Capel + Gomber
Whit, Wong, Goldy, Chapman, Soler, DeJong, Yadi, Thomas….Carlson
Jack, CMart, Mik, Ray, Waino…Woodford
Carp, Knizner, Sosa, Edman, Williams/AdGarcia…..Thomas
Gallegos, Miller, Brebbia, Helsley, Junior, Webb, 2 of Cecil/Leone/Reyes/Whitley/Dobz/Roel…Hicks
-Rotation is a bit thin, but i believe in Rondon and Woodford being closer, and i think we could sign a few vets to minor league contracts
-offense is transformative and scary to the opposition, defense is even better than last year
-bench is versatile and fast and lacks a little punch, but has room to promote easily
-bullpen is a little weak until Hicks comes back…but has plnenty of room for promotion from AAA and plenty of upside candidates are there…a veteran signing (Romo, Neshek) could go a long way, i’d also look hard at Betances even though he is hurt
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