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They are two different players. Walker seems to me to be a complete player and Gorman was a power hitter without a position. There are going to be ups and downs with any rookie. I think Walker profiles as a right fielder and is currently playing that position. Gorman in 2022, profiles as a DH. IMO, he needs to be a future first baseman(after Goldschmidt retires) or a left fielder. His left-handed power bat is needed now.
I prefer to keep low expectations of rookies their first year and maybe second. Hopefully Walker can at least get his feet wet in 2023 then really take off in 2024.
Gorman hasn’t even had a full season yet so I don’t understand writing him off at this point. The Cardinals should think long and hard before including him in a trade. They claim they want to find a LH power bat. In my opinion they have one.
Carlson, on the other hand, has had 2 1/2 years to live up to his hype and has failed to do so in my opinion. He really needs to turn it on in 2023 or he is going to go the way of Piscotty and Rasmus.
Gorman impressed me as having the ability to generate twice the power production as Carlson. Obviously easier said than done, but if he can reduce his tendency to fall victim to the K and collect around 600 PA’s, I think he’ll tater-up 30 to 35 times in a season. I don’t think Carlson’s ever going to collect more than 15 to 20 HR’s in a season. It wouldn’t bother me too much at all to see the Redbirds cast Carlson off in a trade. At least you know what you’re offering up. On the other hand, I don’t think they’ve seen enough of Gorman to foolishly subject themselves to the possibility of giving away a bat that may produce 35 HR’s and 100 RBI’s. Too risky at this juncture.
gscottar: Of course I wasn’t suggesting writing off Walker I was merely pointing out the tendency of some on this board to get overly excited about the occasional unproven quantity. I certainly hope he turns into a bigtime superstar and leads us to multiple world series, but for the moment I have never seen him play so I’ll keep my enthusiasm in a lower gear.
I guess my question is what are the Cardinals doing this off season with Gorman to keep him from striking out so much?
The lockout or something has created prospect fatigue like never before. Posting that Walker is superior to Gorman in the field is silly. Acting like Gorman’s 30 home runs last year equals failure is silly.
Players have to develop. Players improve with that development.
Posters who love all the Players until they experience growing pains miss the point.
I expect Carlson and Gorman to be closer to stardom at the end of next season than they are right now. Then same could be said for Liberatore and Herrera.
This idea that you just move on to the younger guys and discount those who have paid some dues is not how critical thinking works.Ops+
111 yepez
108 Edman
106 Gorman
101 o’neill
100 Carlson
100 DickersonEveryone knows Gorman is playing out of position. If the blame for that falls on him, I disagree.
But, was his bat really THAT disappointing? He did get exposed on high fastballs, he needs to fix that. He and Burleson haven’t even been through the league once.gscottar: Of course I wasn’t suggesting writing off Walker I was merely pointing out the tendency of some on this board to get overly excited about the occasional unproven quantity. I certainly hope he turns into a bigtime superstar and leads us to multiple world series, but for the moment I have never seen him play so I’ll keep my enthusiasm in a lower gear.
Oh I know. My comments were more based on those ready to ship Gorman off in a trade, which I think would be a mistake.
gs…who is writing off Gorman? To me is a starter next year at DH at least against RH pitching. I would like to see in 2-3 yrs an OF of:
LF-Gorman
CF-Winn
RF-Walker
That is top talent at all 3 OF positions.I expect Carlson and Gorman to be closer to stardom at the end of next season than they are right now. Then same could be said for Liberatore and Herrera.
Nigel, couldn’t agree more.
I would like to see in 2-3 yrs an OF of:
LF-Gorman
CF-Winn
RF-WalkerThat is top talent at all 3 OF positions.
….. and then there’s
I was merely pointing out the tendency of some on this board to get overly excited about the occasional unproven quantity.
I’m somewhere in the middle.
Let me ask this again:
WHAT ARE THE CARDINALS DOING THIS OFF-SEASON TO HELP ENSURE THAT GORMAN DOESN’T KEEP STRIKING OUT ALL THE TIME?????
r/Esteemed Rat
gs…who is writing off Gorman? To me is a starter next year at DH at least against RH pitching. I would like to see in 2-3 yrs an OF of:
LF-Gorman
CF-Winn
RF-Walker
That is top talent at all 3 OF positions.I have seen a few posters writing him off or eager to include him in a trade. I am not.
No need to yell Rats….Gorman will be coached properly and he will learn. The dude is only 22. If he fails then he will be one of thousands of prospects who fail. I think he has a nice swing. If he improves at pitch recognition he will be fine.
I think Gorman will continue to strike out a lot. In 2022 he struck out even more at AAA (36.7%) than in St. Louis (32.9%). But in Memphis his SLG and ISO were higher than what he’s done in the past. I think he has taken up swinging for the fence, all or nothing. Probably because while in the bigs he learned that power is what pays. Of course, it only works if you connect enough, which he did in Memphis but so far has not done in STL. So I think it is more realistic to hope he connects more rather than hope he strikes out less.
Generally young guys with power will reduce their strikeouts with reps and maturity. Not sure there is a lot the Cardinals can do – help him better learn pitch recognition, approach depending on the count, and things like that.
It is mostly up to the kid to get the reps and experience.
You can never tell about a young player the first time he’s called up. Gorman may turn out great. Same with Walker.
Why would anyone expect Gorman to excel the first time he’s called up? He just turned 22 in May.See how many future Hall of Famers had much rougher first seasons (90 or lower OPS+) than Gorman (106 OPS+). For example, Clemente, Cobb, Frisch, Henderson, Kaline, Red, Puckett, Sandberg, Yount, etc… Not to mention plenty of others who weren’t that good, but still went on to have decent careers.
All of them at least did it before the internet, many of whose members are not exactly known for their patience…
Article from 2014:
“History proves even top hitting prospects can struggle as rookies”
“History proves even top hitting prospects can struggle as rookies”
Indeed, and some struggle forever, but they fade away and we do not remember their names.
We have 4 position players with less than 500 career PA’s and we won’t know how they will pan out unless we play them; Donovan, Noot, Gorman and Yepez.
As bikemike said, reps.
bling said:
Indeed, and some struggle forever, but they fade away and we do not remember their names.
Since no one can predict this with any accuracy, even after a first partial season, we are back to the same point. They need to play to show what they can be.
It can happen here or it can happen elsewhere. But if they succeed on another team, the second guessers will go nuts, some percentage of whom probably wanted to get rid of the players in the first place.
The Redbirds do have a lot of young talent. I agree that getting reps is a major part of the answer. Preparation is another part. I have always been impressed with the amount of prep work Albert put in …cage and reviewing video.
Have the Cardinals talked to Albert about coming to spring training? Is there any chance the Redbirds would want him to be an additional instructor to work with the younger players? I am not implying the hitting coaches are not up to the task. Rather, a well-qualified assistance could provide great value.
O’Neill, Edman, Carlson, Gorman, Yepez, Noot, Burleson, Walker, Gomez, and Winn. Can anyone remember when we had so many good young position players?
1964, I updated the Pujols thread with the story from the LA Times about his personal services contract with the Angels. He will be working with Angels players in spring training among other tasks. It appears anything with the Cards would require LA’s permission. Not surprising since they are paying $1 MM per year for the next 10 years for his services. Too bad for the Cards, as Albert worked very closely with Yepez, for example, and might be helpful with others, too.
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