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I agree, GameCard. An outfield of Gorman-Winn-Walker along with an infield of Arenado-Edman—Donovan-Goldy, with Yepez, Burleson, and Gomez DHing would be an optimum allocation of assets.
I agree, GameCard. An outfield of Gorman-Winn-Walker along with an infield of Arenado-Edman—Donovan-Goldy, with Yepez, Burleson, and Gomez DHing would be an optimum allocation of assets.
You don’t need to spend a lot of money on FA when you have talented, young players in-house. Go get a catcher to go with Knizner and we are set.
I just hope they find a place where Gorman can field adequately, wherever that may be. Absent Arenado opting out, it won’t be 3B for sure. If it’s OF, so be it. The 2B trial of 2022 was subpar. If they continue the trial into 2023 and there’s no noticeable improvement in the 1st half of the season, they need to quit kidding themselves.
Agreed that Gorman at 2B wasn’t great this year. He’s still new enough that I think you’ve got to give him some time to sort it out. Given his lack of speed, I’m not sure the outfield is really going to be a good spot for him either.
All that said, the lineup against RHP is dangerously weak. We have just about no power from the left hand side and the righty power bats other than O’Neill traditionally hit much better against LHP. We’ve seen it exposed time after time when it matters most. The lineup cannot sustain more than one or two noodle bats against RHP like Knizner/Herrera, Dejong, Carlson, Edman and find success. We are badly in need of Gorman’s bat somewhere. O’Neill hits righties better than lefties generally. So LF isn’t a great spot for Gorman in that sense.
Gorman fielded 2B adequately. He just got stuffed by pitchers who went with 4 seamers high and away coupled with low sliders. He’ll learn and adjust. If he can play infield adequately, he can sure play left field adequately.
Moving all of these guys around the field in order to get their bats in the lineup sounds good on paper but if we lead the league in errors our pitching staff is going to be furious.
Right, gscottar. This isn’t fantasy baseball, where fielding does not matter. The Cardinals pride themselves in playing above-average defense. That is far less likely to happen with players moving all over. Some have shown they can handle it, but others, probably not. Remember Matt Carpenter gamely trying to play second?
It is good for discussion, but there is no real substance to it.
GameCard said:
It is not a different situation in any way. Walker and Gorman were moved because of Arenado. Winn should be moved because of Edman. Winn profiles as a CF’er IMO just like Gorman and Walker profile as corner outfielders IMO. The Cardinals are a better team with Tommy Edman at SS. Mine is not speculation but rather an observer and a lifelong baseball person as a player, coach and spectator of baseball. I am 73 years old.
My goodness! Arenado is arguably the most celebrated defensive player of this generation. Edman has shown proficiency at both middle infield positions and also has experience in the outfield. Of course, the situations are very, very different. Arenado isn’t getting moved. Edman already has, and could again.
No scouts or media or team officials that I have read about are profiling Winn as a center fielder. If that isn’t the case and I missed it, please share the source. Thank you.
P.S. I want to reiterate that Edman is a valuable player – and part of his benefit to the team is that they can plug him in just about anywhere. No one knows what the future will hold. I am just suggesting that there are a number of possibilities ahead – and Edman gives them flexibility that they may decide to use.
“We are badly in need of Gorman’s bat somewhere.”
I didn’t see anything in Gorman’s performance at the plate this year that made me feel desperate to find a spot for him. Then again, I’m not too deeply buried in the numbers jumble. Perhaps he will turn into a Top Gun some day. Perhaps he won’t. Pass the beer nuts.
I’m surprised to hear so little about Carlson-O’Neill-Nootbaar-Burleson. Changing the CF spot involves all of these players plus others. Put Gorman-DeLuzio-Yepes on that pile as well.
Let’s get the top priority done which is getting a two-way catcher and see who is still around.
https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2022/10/17/23408298/coming-up-with-a-potential-trade-for-sean-murphy
IMO Winn is still at least 1 1/2 years away. Walker will arrive sooner. Instead of scrambling up the middle infield and the OF as well it may be better to trade Winn and hold onto the other prospects that would need to be included in a trade for the previously noted catcher.
Wynn’s ranking and value may be at the highest point of his career…. or it could be the lowest. MAYBE the same could be said about Edman. Pick a SS and a CF of the future and email this discussion on to Mozeliak because in the end…. well you know…. he’s full of surprises for us.
“We are badly in need of Gorman’s bat somewhere.”
I didn’t see anything in Gorman’s performance at the plate this year that made me feel desperate to find a spot for him. Then again, I’m not too deeply buried in the numbers jumble. Perhaps he will turn into a Top Gun some day. Perhaps he won’t. Pass the beer nuts.
I believe that you are missing the point that I was trying to make. It’s not that we need a slightly above average, power tilting lefty in the lineup. It’s that we need a really good, power hitting lefty in the lineup. Nootbaar possibly could be one, although his track record doesn’t lend itself to that. Gorman is more likely, and while he has some ways to go with his approach, he offers something that arguably no one else in the upper part of the system does. Burleson also could be that guy. At some point, we need to steel our lineup against the tough righties.
Ny said:
Pick a SS and a CF of the future and email this discussion on to Mozeliak because in the end…. well you know…. he’s full of surprises for us.
No kidding! What if he signs Correa or Trea Turner? Then everyone would move!
In the proposal put forth by GC and BC –
3B – Arenado – not moved around
SS – Edman – not moved around
2B – Donovan – not moved around
1B – Goldy – not moved around
LF – Walker – not moved around
Knizner or another Catcher – not moved around
Yepez – DH – not moved around
Burleson – DH – not moved around
Gomez – DH – not moved aroundThe only players we’re talking about as far was possibly changing positions are Gorman and Winn. Gorman to left field, only if O’Neill isn’t the answer because of injuries or poor production. And Winn because we already have an incumbent at SS who came in #3 in WAR in all of MLB in 2022.
And in CF only if Carlson doesn’t improve the way he should.That’s far from “moving players all around”.
Agreed that Gorman at 2B wasn’t great this year. He’s still new enough that I think you’ve got to give him some time to sort it out.
This makes sense. To a point, that is, and for me it’s giving him maybe up to half a season next year. Hopefully he’ll get his plate issues sorted out so he can stay in the lineup somewhat regularly. After 2 to 4 months next season, if he hasn’t shown any improvement at 2B, he’s out of place since that would be two seasons to demonstrate his ability to handle it. Caring about the defense and trying not to lead the league in errors is exactly why you’d need to move him.
No kidding! What if he signs Correa or Trea Turner? Then everyone would move!
You’re overthinking this with unnecessary constraints. Why not both? Then move Turner to 2B and trade Gorman, Winn & Edman for an elite catcher. That way you’re only moving Turner. He played 3B in college so this just another step around the horn for him. Yeah, that’s the ticket.
I’m a staunch proponent of moving players around. The four primary causes of the collapse of this ballclub in their last two games of their season were directly related to NOT moving players around and are as follows….1. The failure to move players around to cross HP. 2. The failure to move around an obviously injured and struggling pitcher off the mound and into the dugout. 3. The failure to move the IF players around to normal or DP depth with the bases jammed up in the top half of the 9th with 1 out, a 1 run lead while playing at HOME. 4. The failure to move players around in the batting order to where they’re obviously better suited for success.
You’re on to something there 1TD. Someone actually talked about Edman be a super sub of some sort and moving to different infield and outfield positions based upon the needs of the day or week. Now that’s the ultimate in moving a player around. Donovan might fill that role, but not Edman. To get the maximum out of Tommy you give him the courtesy and consistency of playing the same position day after day.
I’m convinced Gorman will provide plenty of power production in the Big Leagues in the not too distant future. Obviously he has to plug up the holes that Big League pitching quickly found in his swing and cut down on the alarming K rate, but he tatered-up 14 times to go along with 13 doubles in 313 PA’s and he ripped 10 of those 14 HR’s in less than 175 PA’s. When he makes contact, the baseball launches as if from a silo. I think practical experience will teach him to adjust and counter the approach that opposing pitchers quickly deployed to get him out. If he doesn’t, I’ll simply be wrong concerning my optimism towards the young player.
bccran…I think middle IF positions carry the highest risk of defensive fiascos when they’re constantly shuffled from one area to another. I also think it’s important that the SS and 2B’man play they’re respective positions on an everyday or regular basis in order to become accustomed to one another and achieve the all important timing between the two. I immediately think of Smith and Herr, Kessinger and Beckert, Groat and Mazeroski, etc. I’m sure there are many others.
In the proposal put forth by GC and BC –
3B – Arenado – not moved around
SS – Edman – not moved around
2B – Donovan – not moved around
1B – Goldy – not moved around
LF – Walker – not moved around
Knizner or another Catcher – not moved around
Yepez – DH – not moved around
Burleson – DH – not moved around
Gomez – DH – not moved aroundThe only players we’re talking about as far was possibly changing positions are Gorman and Winn. Gorman to left field, only if O’Neill isn’t the answer because of injuries or poor production. And Winn because we already have an incumbent at SS who came in #3 in WAR in all of MLB in 2022.
And in CF only if Carlson doesn’t improve the way he should.That’s far from “moving players all around”.
So we want an outfield of Gorman, Winn, and Walker?
Gorman = never has played OF.
Winn = never has played OF.
Walker = has only played maybe a 1/3 or 1/2 of a minor league season in the OF.Put them all into one of the biggest OF’s in the majors (Busch). That seems questionable to me.
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