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Many potential trades have been proposed, but I see no purpose for the Cards to acquire a catching prospect in a Donovan trade. We have 5 catchers on the 40 man roster. We need outfield help and a potential ace starter. If Sloan isn’t included, I would deal with other teams. One of our top lefty prospects like a Mautz could be included if the return is substantial. I’ve seen it both ways, fans of one team not understanding the needs of our team. I have also seen our posters raise potential trades where we benefit greatly. Ideally a trade helps both teams.
I’m pretty sure you got what I was trying to describe. Another way of describing it could be ‘Does a team as a whole play better because of certain intangibles like veteran presence and exceptional defense by other players?’ I know Goldschmidt was really on his toes when he saw a ball hit anywhere in the vicinity of Arenado.
I completely agree that every fan has the privilege to assess a possible or completed player transaction in whatever way works best for them.
It’s already past midnight here, so Happy New Year from the Great Midwest.
Another way of describing it could be ‘Does a team as a whole play better because of certain intangibles like veteran presence and exceptional defense by other players?’
You cannot include intangibles in a statistical model because they violate the principles of statistics: The observations must be observable, repeatable and measurable.
If Sloan isn’t included, I would deal with other teams.
The Cardinals may prefer Cjintje to Sloan. We don’t know which team proposed Cjintje in the trade.
One of our top lefty prospects like a Mautz could be included if the return is substantial.
I don’t see adding a prospect to the trade as something that increases the value value to the other team such that they would give up a prospect that is otherwise untouchable.
I might be more interested in Cintje if the Mariners had dropped the left handed side of his switch pitching. He needs to work on a consistent delivery.
And also, the Cards don’t have to trade Donovan yet. Perhaps an injury might get the Cards a better offer at the deadline. But I would like to see Wetherholt break camp with the team. But that doesn’t seem likly unless Donovan, Arenado or Gorman are traded.
Is Seattle in dire need of the “veteran presence” of Brendan Donovan, who has posted 10.1 fWAR over his four-year MLB career?
Over the same period, the fWAR totals for current Mariner position players: Cal Raleigh 23.0, Julio Rodriguez 21.2, J.P. Crawford 11.6, Randy Arozarena 10.7 and Josh Naylor 9.9. Three Seattle pitchers have surpassed Donovan’s fWAR totals over the four-year period.
Seattle is defensively strong up the middle with Rodriguez and former Gold Glove winners Raleigh and Crawford but could use defensive upgrades after finishing near the bottom last year in many fielding categories:
Returning Mariner second baseman Cole Young remains an enigma after posting dismal defensive metrics in his MLB debut last season. However, FanGraphs graded Young as a 50/60 fielder as a prospect.
Returning third baseman Ben Williamson rated a 70/70 defender as a prospect and was credited with 8 Defensive Runs Saved in only 703 innings at third base last season.
Thank you for an interesting discussion about a trade that is unlikely to take place.
Arenado is going to be traded b/c I assume he wants to be a starting 3rd baseman still, not a bench player
Cardinals27
I might be more interested in Cintje if the Mariners had dropped the left handed side of his switch pitching. He needs to work on a consistent delivery.
I think it would be interesting if he gets hit with an injury to one arm though, and can just switch over, assuming the LH side becomes major league worthy.
From an August report on Jurrangelo Cijntje at MLB.com:
The Mariners began the season by having him alternate between switch-pitching starts and left-handed relief appearances but moved to a more normal starter’s schedule in May. Since the change, the 2024 first-round Draft pick has pitched to a 3.92 ERA with 61 strikeouts compared to 19 walks in 57 1/3 innings, primarily throwing right-handed but picking spots to switch sides.
https://www.mlb.com/news/colt-emerson-jurrangelo-cijntje-promted-to-double-a-arkansas
I think it would be interesting if he gets hit with an injury to one arm though, and can just switch over, assuming the LH side becomes major league worthy.
Yes, that is one way.
Or perhaps they use him as a stopper to save the bullpen, and he goes first time through the order right handed, second time through the order left-handed and third time through the order right handed. That might be an approach worth testing in the minors.
I might be more interested in Cintje if the Mariners had dropped the left handed side of his switch pitching.
Isn’t he naturally left-handed, and developed the right hand trying to mimic his father?
The problem with switch pitchers is history is not good at all, and the mechanics usually become issues
The problem with switch pitchers is history is not good at all, and the mechanics usually become issues
Are the odds demonstrably different than pitchers in general?
I would guess there is not enough of a sample size to draw such inferences.
And Cjintje is rare in that he throws 98 mph from both sides. That probably makes him a 1 of 1.
There have been some in the minors that never made it…they usually want them to pick their best side and concentrate on it, I can only remember the Venditte guy that pitched about 7-8 years ago.
The Cijinte guy may be the exception but he has not set the world on fire at A or his few starts at AA, the one thing that could help him with mechanics is he is short
LACardFan, an honest question, as I haven’t seen it anywhere. Where are you getting your info that Cijntje throws 98 from both sides? I’ve seen it more that he’s low 90s from the left, mid 90s and up from the right.
Where are you getting your info that Cijntje throws 98 from both sides?
It was actually something I read in passing the other night.
This is Google’s AI Overview:
Jurrangelo Cijntje’s fastball is a key part of his unique ambidextrous pitching, delivering impressive velocity and life from both arms, typically sitting mid-90s (touching 99+) right-handed with explosive life and low-90s (touching 95+) left-handed
About one minute into this video Cjintje threw 97mph right handed.
At the beginning of BA’s review of the Mariners Farm System, they ranked Cjintne as having the best fastball in the Mariners system.
I still have some work to do today, I’ll try to find more later.
The summer after his senior year, he floored scouts at the MLB draft combine in San Diego. From the left, he threw a 96 mph fastball and an 80 mph breaking ball. From the right, he hurled a 92 mph heater and a 75 mph curve.
Cjintje is naturally a lefty, and in HS could hit 96 with his left, and only 92 with his right.
In college, he faced far more right-handers than left-handers, so that is the arm that developed more.
It stands to reason that if he spent more time developing his naturally dominant arm, it would become better over time.
I still like and would expect at least Sloan. OR Donnie, Noot, Jojo and Tommy E can be teammates….
Harmony knows Sloan is a much much better prospect or wouldn’t be trying to offload Cjintje on a twice per post basis.
My daily trade proposal: Donnie, Jojo AND Noot
For:
-Emil Morales, the GDP…. grand Donnie prize, probably the 3B in 2029. IF version of Rainiel
-River Ryan, mid-late 26 rotation option, great upside and has actually shown results
– Teoscar Hernandez – The RHH corner OFer the Cards need to win 63 games in 2026. Dodgers cover $5.553 in 2026 and $7.33 in 2027, which actually saves them a ton of money (luxury tax # for him is just above $19M x 2 = $38M x roughly 100% = $76M – $26.7 paid by Cards is about $50m saved out of pocket. 2028 B/O is the Cards option to take it or move on.Harmony knows Sloan is a much much better prospect or wouldn’t be trying to offload Cjintje on a twice per post basis.
The Mariners reportedly would make Jurrangelo Cijntje avaiable in a trade for Brendan Donovan but Cijntje alone might be too much go trade for a potential upgrade over Seattle’s currently rostered options.
Donovan is unlikely to be traded to Seattle.
And, yes, Ryan Sloan is a more highly ranked prospect than Cijntje.
So, here’s what Fangraphs said:
Right-handed Cijntje is a Dude. He’s touched 99 mph and sits in the mid-to-high 90s with bat-missing carry.
He’s touched 95 from that side, but tends to work either side of 90, without bat-missing shape or sharp command
So, I’ll amend my earlier statement to say he can hit 95 mph from either side.
I do think it is amazing that people think a guy who developed his weaker arm into the better one in college can’t develop his dominant arm in the pros.
Anyway, if the Cardinals can get a package from Boston that includes Witherspoon, that would be my preference.
But if Seattle puts the best package together, and it is headlined by Cijntje, I do think it would make the farm system better and would be rooting for the Cardinals pitching gurus to show us what they can do.
There doesn’t seem to be much risk with Donovan. The only question would be ‘How much better can he get?’. There’s substantial risk with any pitcher or position player that hasn’t yet reached the majors. If I had to choose between Witherspoon and Cijintje, I would take Witherspoon. He’s younger and still very projectable. After that I would probably be okay with Cijintje, although I don’t like the fact that he really is a ‘novelty pitcher’.
I still think that the Cardinals are waiting to see if Bregman signs with Boston. If Bregman doesn’t sign with Boston, then Arenado and Donovan will both be offered to Boston, IMO. The more the Cardinals pay on Arenado’s contract, the better the return in prospects from Boston.
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