April 8, 2021 at 1:07 pm #157454so_cal_cards_fanParticipantFree
Several posters have mentioned Nogo and Sosa. I still have bad memories of Martinez in the OF, bless his heart. Nogowski has had only 13 TC in the OF in the minors, in 99 innings, mostly in the CAL Adv A league in 2016. He made no errors, fwiw.
Before starting Nogo, I would start Sosa at 2nd with Edman in RF periodically, to see if Sosa can heat up. O’Neill looks just terrible flailing away at the plate. Williams gives me hope, like any young rookie.April 8, 2021 at 1:17 pm #157457
Tommy Edman has never been an outfielder throughout his college years and professional years – up until he played a few games out there in 2019. After Wong wasn’t exercised, Edman became the starting second baseman for the Cards. That’s the bottom line.April 8, 2021 at 1:48 pm #157460so_cal_cards_fanParticipantFree
So, Craig must stay a SS, because he played there in the minors?
And Motte must stay a Catcher, right? Trevor Hoffman is a shortstop? Do you need more examples from our beautiful game?
And the OAA data means nothing? Your bad statistics don’t bear correction?
The bottom line is: you are right because …. wait for it….. you are right. What a waste of time.April 8, 2021 at 3:21 pm #157466gscottarParticipantPaid - Annual
gscottar, I am appreciative of forsch for bringing this thread back. IMO, it is better to have this one continuing thread rather than have the same posts repeated on every other thread.
gscottar – I agree with you completely. But the OF remains in the spotlight. I would draw your attention to the sports writers at the PD who are addressing it repeatedly.
I get all of that but I am still not clear why we have to be so laser focused on one aspect of the team when there are many factors that determine if we win or not. I could care less what our OF’s are hitting as long as we are winning. If I am not mistaken MLB uses the W-L record to determine the standings but I could be wrong about that.April 8, 2021 at 3:31 pm #157469
So cal – I’m not going to be insulting like you. Especially during this great traditional opening home game at Busch.
I’ll just say that Edman was drafted as an infielder, came through the minors as an infielder, and was being groomed to be a versatile infield reserve, playing 3 infield positions. Then 2 things happened.
First, Carp went in the tank. Secondly, the pandemic hit and with revenues down the Cards decided not to exercise Wong’s option. That left second base and the leadoff position open for Edman to earn.
He did just that. He’s our starting second baseman. And a long way from profiling as a corner outfielder.
I agree. Squabbling is a waste of time. Let’s put it to bed.April 8, 2021 at 6:58 pm #157495
I think that we are seeing just what we expected to see as far as players getting regular time on the field. The group of outfielders, to include Thomas, will get ample opportunity to establish whether or not they can perform at the MLB level as everyday players. None have especially noteworthy minor league or MLB stats, but they are getting their chance. DeJong will probably continue averaging a homer a week and also continue the overall offensive slide that has been steady since the high point in 2017. The situation with Carp is unfortunate. He is keeping Rondon in the minors and Sosa on the bench, while contributing nothing. But that is not a surprise. We are just going to have to wait for some of this stuff to play out. It is way easier when we are winning.April 8, 2021 at 8:24 pm #157504
Great statement, BB. Winning cures a lot.April 8, 2021 at 9:39 pm #157507mudvilleParticipantPaid - Annual
Right. Winning cures a lot.
I, for one, have not given up on O’Neill. I don’t believe his play during spring training was a mirage. I think he just needs to find himself again, and when he does he will show his true worth. Let’s just see.
Also, I don’t buy the simplistic platitude that says ‘you are what your stats say you are’. Anybody who wants to get better can get better with determination and practice.
O’Neill just needs to work what he’s going through just like Carlson does.April 8, 2021 at 9:53 pm #157508
O’Neill – 25 years old
Played 235 games at AAA
Carlson – 22 years old
Only played 18 games at AAA
Carlson was rushed to the majors because of need, before he was fully developed.
Big difference between the two of them.April 8, 2021 at 11:13 pm #157509Nigel TParticipantPaid - Three Months
Hilariously, Piscotty and Grichuk may soon be available when Oakland is eliminated in early April and Springer comes back about that same time. We have about 300 more games of this if we actually expect to take an entire outfield through the developmental process. Patience please.April 9, 2021 at 7:47 am #157515
I am not high on O’Neal as some others are. His K rate remains abysmal and his productivity has declined since the big 2018 half season in Memphis. I think the 2020 disruption hurt him especially bad. People talk about working on pitch recognition, etc., but in his 9th pro season there is only only so much to be expected in the new tricks department.April 9, 2021 at 8:26 am #157517
Patience is fine when you’re talking about a young player or two on your team. But when you’re talking about an entire outfield………..not so much. Too risky for a fan nation that wants to go deep into October every year. And too much risk when you don’t have much coming up from the mid minors OF pool.April 9, 2021 at 9:15 am #157523
Well, yes, Cranny, but this is what we expected. Fowler was moved and his contract eaten to clear the way for this very thing. Run these unproven guys out there and see if any of them can play. Meanwhile an eye will be kept on Gordon as well. We will have a lot of young pitching on display this season and I have confidence some of that talent will be mined to bring in a corner OF bat at some point later on. I suspect, though it is only a guess, that the brains are thinking Carlson’s bat plays better in CF, so that is being run up the flagpole as well. A lot of moving parts. For now, though, Mo is still seeking the next Arozarena before deciding who to move out.April 9, 2021 at 10:09 am #157527
The problem with that, BB, is that Arozarena was outperforming all the other outfielders. The rest have been okay coming through the minors, but nothing to shout home about. Bader came up to the Cardinals for 32 games in 2017. He played in 138 games in 2018. 128 in 2019. 50 in the shortened 2020 season. This is his 5th year of at least some major league experience. How much patience can the fans have? This is Tylor O’Neill’s 9th year as a pro. This is his 4th year of major league experience. He hit .271 coming through the minors with 140 home runs in 566 games. Struck out 688 times. Thomas had all the opportunity to make the club this year and fell short. This is his 8th year as a pro. His minor league numbers are aggregate .252/.329/.421/.750. Not too blazing. Williams? This is also William’s ninth year as a pro. The most home runs he’s hit in any minor league season is 14. And he was a starting corner OFer for the St. Louis Cardinals in 2021?
Patience is bliss. In some circumstances. Not sure it’s totally warranted here. Except with Carlson.April 9, 2021 at 10:35 am #157529
Don’t get me wrong here cranny. I am not saying I think there is anything to found here, except hopefully Carlson being an upgrade from Bader in CF. It is the legacy of the Arozarena flub and we were put on notice to expect it this year. No point tearing your hair out all season.
Ultimately I think it likely to play out like this. Mo decides there is nothing there except Carlson replacing Bader. Pitching gets traded for a corner OF with a bat. By season end it is Carlson, Edman and new guy out there, with Rondon or Sosa at 2b replacing Carp on the roster. With Gordon coming in next year either in OF or at 2B depending on where he can play.April 9, 2021 at 10:41 am #157531
A wild card is Nogowski. He can hit, but whether he could maintain it as an MLB regular is unknown. I don’t know if he could be an everyday OF, and I don’t think we will ever find out. It is too bad he lost some PAs to Carp with Goldy out yesterday.April 9, 2021 at 3:47 pm #157537Brian WaltonKeymasterPaid - Annual
The problem with that, BB, is that Arozarena was outperforming all the other outfielders.
2019 Memphis Redbirds, OF OPS
With St. Louis, Randy only had a total of 20 career at-bats, which is not enough to say anything.April 9, 2021 at 4:33 pm #157538
Due to small sample size it may be worth expanding Brian’s info dump.
Arozarena (AAA) 1.028 in 283 PA (AA) .938 in 116 PA
O’Neill (AAA) .842 in 166 PA (MLB) .723 in 151 PA
Williams (AAA) 1.045 in 119 PA (AA) .509 in 61 PA
Carlson (AAA) 1.098 in 79 PA (AA) .882 in 483 PA
Bader (AAA) 1.125 in 75 PA (MLB) .680 in 406 PAApril 9, 2021 at 5:10 pm #157539Nigel TParticipantPaid - Three Months
Randy was never a top prospect. Adolis was more highly thought of at the time. Not one of you saw anything more than a couple nice at bats late in a season. Any other narrative is false. No one who followed Randy closely would doubt the possibility or even likelihood, since we saw him do it in Mexico one off season and later a hot stretch at AA. No one who witnessed his subsequent cooling off would say stardom was assured.April 9, 2021 at 5:15 pm #157540
Thanks BB, I was just about to post the same thing.April 9, 2021 at 5:17 pm #157541
No, Nigel, success wasn’t assured. But Mo made a mistake by his own admission, and directed his guys to review how they assessed talent.April 9, 2021 at 5:32 pm #157542forsch31ParticipantFree
RA in majors:
2019 – .891 OPS in 23 plate appearances
2020 – 1.022 OPS in 76 PAs
2021 – .712 OPS in 22 PAs
What can we conclude about his ability in the majors? Absolutely nothing, yet. If we could determine things off that few of plate appearances, it wouldn’t bode well for Carlson.April 9, 2021 at 5:42 pm #157544Brian WaltonKeymasterPaid - Annual
By what measure was Randy supposedly “outperforming all of the other outfielders”? When and where did this allegedly occur?
Just a simple answer, please.April 9, 2021 at 6:42 pm #157545
BB made that clear, Brian. Unless you want to attempt to use much smaller sample sizes to try to make a comparison.
The bottom line is that RA and DC had/have some talent. HB, TO, LT, and JW are pretty average, and are going to have to go a ways to play starting OF on a top tier team. They’re a long way from it right now. And there’s not much coming through the system to excite very soon, as you know. Unless Gorman is moved to OF.April 9, 2021 at 6:54 pm #157546forsch31ParticipantFree
Arozarena, Carlson, Bader, O’Neill and Thomas all have talent. It’s just that none of them have shown it in the majors for long enough to say how their career will end up.
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