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I think the jury is still out on MM too. But others like BlackHills and Brian seem to think he’s a weak manager and has had plenty of time to improve without success. They don’t seem to want to consider the key injuries over the last few years and the inordinate amount of rookies he has had to break into major league ball. All they want to talk about are his bullpen moves. And those criticisms are without the data and
player conditions available in the dugout. Mo and Mike G. are analytics guys. MM tries to follow those analytics with his in game moves as much as he can. They expect him to.I think if the relative mediocrity that the Cardinals have fallen in to continues for another year or two, management will make a change.
Some of that could depend on who else is available. But right now I think Mike is living off his early success to some degree. His lack of tactical shrewdness, and issues with seemingly favoring certain players will make him expendable if his record does not over-shadow those deficiencies.
Still, as I said I think he getting better and this year has mostly played the guys who are playing better, rather than doing nonsensical things like moving his second-baseman to the outfield, and putting his closer in days in a row, with some motivation based on building the guy’s stats.
I think the acension of the Cubs has made everyone in Cardinal Nation a little extra edgy ( I know it has me). If we were losing the division to the Reds, Pirates, or Brewers it would still suck but it wouldn’t suck as bad as losing to the hated Cubs.
As for Matheny I won’t throw out a bunch of stats. I’m just going to go with my opinion. I think he is neither a bad manager or a great manager. I think he is an above average manager who was fortunate to land with a top notch organization (most of the time). Unfortunately that top notch organization failed to provide him with enough pieces to put a championship team on the field this year. I have a feeling that will be corrected this offseason.
As a side note, I am of the strong belief that the front office has more to do with the success/failure of a team than the field manager. We all know the manager is important but I really think the FO sets the tone.
As a second side note, the Cardinals are a franchise that thrives on stability. We have had four full time managers since 1980. That is really incredible. Not many sports franchises can say that. We don’t change managers every time there is some angst and that is probably a good thing.
bccran, please share a message board post or published article in which I called Matheny a weak manager. (hint: You won’t find it.) My challenge in responding to you (in multiple topics) is that you can be so over the top in your positions that my attempts to strike a more reasonable middle ground (almost always backed by supporting data) appear to you to be bashing.
bikemike, I agree with you that nothing will happen anytime soon with the manager. Within the last year, the field manager, assistant GM and GM all received contract extensions, with the latter two being promoted. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it will be interesting to see what changes are made among the coaches, and more importantly, to the roster for 2018.
Brian –
I’m over the top sometimes? That seems like an opinion. I hope it’s not meant to be stated as a fact.
I’ve referred to the following in prior posts –
1.) MM didn’t have the same lineup in 2012 as TL had in 2011. Pujols was big loss.
2.) MM has had a higher number of WAR days lost to top players through injury than most teams.
3.) MM has had more rookies to break in than most teams.
4.) MM makes moves with information at hand that posters on this forum don’t have.
5.) MM has a higher winning percentage compared to most others who have managed the Cardinals, as well as some other very well known and respected managers. He hasn’t yet had a losing season yet.
6.) MM’s winning percentage is in the top 3 in MLB since he took over.
7.) Managers who have been held up to compare MM to have had their down years – Bochey, etc.
8.) There is a whole lot more to managing a major league baseball team than just in game moves.
9.) MM makes mistakes, just like all MLB managers do at times. Posters should criticize his mistakes and laud moves that work out. Some posters are fixated on the former.I don’t deem those things to be over the top. I’m truly sorry that you do.
bccran
bccran
Participant
Did MM inherit Pujols, BlackHills?
The core player on the team? Did he inherit Descalso at 2B and Jay in CF? Let’s drop the discussion about what a great team he inherited. This year, do you really think he was handed a playoff teM?
Peralta? Diaz? Grichuk? Piscotty?
Broxton? Etc?Mike –
Herzog finally won a WS in his 11th year of managing.
LaRussa finally won a WS in his 13th year of managing.
You have a great point about Southworth, but did it matter that his 2 WS wins were in 1942 and 1944?
As far as the Redhead, here are some of the players he won the WS with in his 3rd year of managing –
Brock
Cepeda
Shannon
McCarver
Flood
Maris
Gibson
CarletonCase made.
Once again, BC, you are incorrectly citing Herzog’s WS information. He won his first WS in his 7th season that he started the season as the team’s manager.
He managed the Angels for 4 games in 1974. He took over the Royals with 66 games left in the 1975 season. He managed the Cardinals for 73 games in the middle of 1980. The 1981 season is usually listed on 2 separate lines because of the split season due to a players’ strike.
It is always tough to compare managers because of so many variables, as people have pointed out. You have different teams, different eras, different leagues, injuries, randomness, and many other factors. It is impossible to isolate factors down to one variable, and then compare results.
After posting some this morning, I went out on a bike ride and another Cardinal manager came in to my head that I left out of the earlier posts – Walter Johnson’s old catcher, Gabby Street. Street holds up well as Cardinal manager, with a .563 winning percentage in over 500 games of managing, including two pennants, with one a World Championship over a truly great team, the 1931 Philadelphia Athletics.
Without digging deeper, which should really be done for a true list, my top 10 Cardinal managers would be:
1. Southworth – far and away the best winning pct for a Cardinal manager; consistent great teams. After leaving St. Louis, he lead a mediocre Boston Braves team to their first pennant in 34 years. A no doubt HOF manager.
2. LaRussa – long tenure, with most of his clubs competitive
3. Herzog – may have gotten more out of what he had than any other Cardinal skipper
4. Schoendienst – a player’s manager who treated guys as professionals and let their talents do the talking; might be higher on the list had management not blundered with several horrible trades and personnel moves during his tenure
5. Keane – his intangibles might have been more important, and more impactful, than his on-field work. Gets great reviews as a manager by guys who played for him.
6. Frisch – fiery and a true leader
7. Dyer – all he did was win
8. Hornsby – took over the same club Branch Rickey managed, and immediately turned it around; won our first World title
9. Street – lead what I consider to be the third greatest Cardinal team of all-time, the 1931 club, to a championship, which came on the heels of a pennant the year before
10. Matheny – all he has done is win also, but not up to par with the others due to lack of a championship. Is trending downward, which happened to many of the guys listed above him and was one of the main reasons for their eventual dismissalGood list, Mike. You’re a true long time, excellent Cardinal fan.
Forsch –
In addition to managing a lot more games than MM prior to winning a WS, Perhaps we should factor in the experience Whitey had prior to landing a managerial job, compared to MM –
1964 – Athletics scout
1965 – Athletics coach
1966 – Mets 3rd base coach
1967 – Mets Director of Player Development
1968 – Mets Director of Player Development
1969 – Mets Director of Player Development
1970 – Mets Director of Player Development
1971 – Mets Director of Player Development
1972 – Mets Director of Player DevelopmentThe prior background info is interesting to compare, but I doubt it is relevant to the bottom line. I think it is highly unlikely that any MLB manager would be given significantly more time to succeed because he lacked experience coming in. It is what his teams do while he is in the job that determines his job security, or lack of it.
P.S. In fact, looking at hiring trends in today’s world, it almost seems that baseball experience is less valued than ever.
Brian – you and I have talked about the move to bring in
Mike when he had no managerial experience. That they should have given him a right hand man (former major league manager – Leyland type) during Mike’s first few years. I’m sure you would agree that if he had major league coaching experience and time in the front office as a senior executive he would have been a little more prepared.BC, what does Whitey’s background have to do with the FACT that it was his 7th full season, NOT his 11th season as you keep trying to say?
Also, Matheny spent 2 years in the Cardinals’ system as a roving instructor. That has just as much relevance as Herzog’s jobs prior to managing.
Third point, Herzog managed teams for 1194 games prior to winning his first WS. MM will have managed for 972 games at the end of this season. That is a little over 1 season difference.
Herzog had a .543 career winning % at the time he won his first WS and that was after a 47-91 record in his first year as a manager. He had a .569 career winning % after that first year until he won a WS. Rangers winning % in the 2 years prior to Herzog was .374. The Royals winning % in the 2 years prior to Herzog was .509. The Cardinals winning % in the 2 years prior to Herzog was .478.
The Cardinals winning % in the 2 years prior to Matheny was .543.
You mean a .543 winning percentage in 2010 and 2011, when they had Albert Pujols batting 3rd? With 42 home runs in 2010 and 37 home runs in 2011? With Matt Holliday hitting behind him both years? With a middle of the order of Pujols, Holliday, and Berkman in 2011, compared to Fowler, Martinez, and Molina now? Our new murderers row?
In very timely and appropriate news….
Another of the young catcher-first time managers bites the dust as the Tigers announce Brad Ausmus is not being asked back for 2018. He had four years to deliver. Mike Redmond in Miami got just 2+ years.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/20786718/detroit-tigers-not-renew-contract-manager-brad-ausmus
colhusker issued a very appropriate warning early in this thread. Our moderator should be careful that he’s not deemed to be bitter toward MM if any Cardinal personnel read this forum. My question is related.
What did MM do to alienate our moderator? Was MM rude? Did MM duck interviews? There must be something stuck in the craw, B. Be honest.You must be kidding, right? That is what colhusker was doing, poking fun after the manager called some fans “bitter”.
Viva El Birdos and the Belleville News-Democrat are among those who have published articles calling for the manager to be fired. This summer, MLB Network rated him the #30 manager in MLB. I think the worst I said he is not among the top managers in the game. Pretty tame in comparison, but you can consider me warned, deputy… 😉
I could provide article after article of guys smarter than all of us who say Matheny is a poor manager with bad habits.
“Now, the Matheny apologists would say something like: well, he’s won more games than anybody since 2012 … so what bad habits? It’s an interesting argument. I tend to be a bottom-line guy, but there are no absolutes here.” https://www.101sports.com/2016/12/22/no-4-cardinals-concern-2017-mike-mathenys-handling-personnel/
That’s the same argument bccran likes to make which I find hilarious after reading this article.
Wow, your dislike of Matheny is even stronger than I thought, Brian. Seriously, what did he do to you?
p.s. do you really want to reference the Belleville News-Democrat as as a big credible source? A publication from a small town across the river from St. Louis? And some guy from another Cardinals fans site who is just expressing his opinion?
Amazing.
Perhaps this misunderstanding is rooted in a perception that when other writers are referenced, it implies an endorsement. That is not the case. I share interesting news items here on this forum frequently. Some are positive, others are less so, depending on one’s perspective, of course. There just hasn’t been a lot of supportive news about Matheny in recent times, but if it is being overlooked, by all means, please share it with all.
In the meantime, this thread is about the manager, not me or you or any other poster.
When you say another poster is over the top at times, Brian, you have made it about another poster and not the manager. Let’s please follow our own advice.
And about our manager, when an article is posted about a manager being fired who happens to be a former catcher – and a “timely” parallel is drawn, it displays harsh bias against MM.
Just because you’re biased or against someone for different reasons doesnt mean you are wrong.
At best he is average. Yes he was handed a mish mash roster. But there is enough talent here to be better than we are.
And he hasnt gotten the job done.
Fundamentals are worse (our foibles are a running gag). He has a major long term blind spot (yadi). The players obviously are not motivated and that area has gone very downhill since 2011.
At best, you can say he is average. When you’re a team that competes every year average is not good enough.
…And keep in mind that this is coming from someone who is relatively indifferent (not indifferent, just try to keep things relatively in perspective) because managers don’t win or lose more than ten or so games per year.. and maybe five games tops in the standings.
But when it is virtually universal that he is a bad manager… You’re in denial is the best I can say.
Also keep in mind… Five games in the standings… Well… You can do the math.
“But when it is virtually universal that he is a bad manager…you’re in denial is the best I can say.”
Oh brother. We’ve hit a new low.
On multiple levels. Mind numbing.
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