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But carp arm would fall off trying to throw tie ball period it would be a beyond stupid move to put him in lf he needs to be moved to the al end of story
You do remember the Matt Adams experiment in LF last year, don’t you? What makes you think Carpenter can play LF?
I never said it was a good option. I said it was better than fowler.
When you can give a player away and your team is better off, arguing that someone else sucks too is a crappy argument.
I think the Cardinals are going to give Fowler one more year to prove himself defensively, then they will force a trade by relegating him to the bench if he puts up another year like last year.
I think Carpenter would be a disaster in LF – along the lines of Adams.
Giving Fowler away won’t improve the team. You can release him but they will need to pay 66million for him to play for another team. That makes no sense. You can try to trade and get a team to pick some of the contract but he would have to approve. You may want him gone but don’t offer any ideas on how to accomplish that.
I think Carp could be fine out there if pressed into need… but his arm is not suited for it
if people thought Jon Jay’s arm was bad for the outfield they’d be praying for him over Carp IMO
Giving fowler away means the other team takes the contract.
I never said releasing.
I have offered so many ways to accomplish having fowler gone I lost count.
He isnt worthless. Just worthless to us. He gives us less than nothing that we cant get cheaper or better elsewhere
…and once again. I never said carpenter was a good option. I said fowler was a horrible one. Carpenter would give us the same production (yes including bad defense) for less money. There is nothing more to it.
It isnt my fault fowler isnt worth his contract. It isnt his either. That doesnt mean you hold onto him thinking by some miracle he won’t suck.
You dump the albatross and put the money into a real difference maker.
But which team is willing to take the albatross contract? Will Fowler accept the trade? How much money will the Cards have to pay to the other team? Not easy.
Did we all watch the same season unfold last year? Fowler was not the defensive upgrade we dreamed of in center, but he played well all season. He got on base, drove in runs, got timely hits, provided leadership, and earned his money. We value defensive versatility, but rarely recognize it on the offensive side. It still has value. He is a big, wiry guy. He is never going to be a quick-twitch explosive player, but he covers ground and is a winner. I can tell you that counts for a lot. People who have never managed a group of diverse personalities don’t recognize the power of nuances. You can’t cure cancer…not even with winning. Teams win in spite of cancerous personalities sometimes, but that is rare and fleeting. Players like Dexter are wildly important and analytics fall short in that area. I find it hard to believe the negativity I am reading is coming from posters whose insights I have enjoyed for years.
@Nigel – did you watch Fowler in the outfield last year? He was brought in to improve the defense, and had the second worst defensive ratings among center fielders.
My belief is Fowler only cared about defense in his two seasons with the Cubs, and that was only to earn a pay day. He got the pay day, stopped caring about defense. Think it’s coincidental his two best defensive years were his free agent years?
And his value was established the previous offseason, when nobody offered him more than 3 years/$33 million. The Cardinals offered 5 years/$82.5 million.
Maybe he will get straightened out by a move to the corner, maybe he won’t. If he doesn’t, he needs to be relegated to 4th OF.
Fowler will be the starting RF on opening day. Whether anyone likes it or not that is going to happen barring some extremely unlikely trade.
Our next offensive upgrade is going to be at 1B or 3B. That is what we need to be discussing. It will probably be one of Donaldson, Machado, Hosmer, Moustakas, or Frazier.
Of that group I would choose Hosmer, move Carp to 3B and trade Gyroko.
Frazier is a less expensive option and is sound defensively at 3B.
That is a better option than moving Carpenter to third.
I watched him; I just have reasonable expectations. He played with foot injuries. That is really tough. I get that he wasn’t the difference maker we wanted in center. He wasn’t Gorman Thomas out there either. No body complained when that big lumbering oaf played center for the Brewers because he did a respectable job for a big,lumbering oaf. You want Fowler to be Willie McGee? You are going to be disappointed. You want him to be Edmonds? Sorry he isn’t. He is a 6’5″ guy who can play center. We are very lucky to be able to move him to left or right next year. He is not a liability at all at any outfield position.
Frazier will cost money that we don’t have. We have money to spend, but not on guys who are spiraling downward. I am not sure I could stomach watching Hosmer hit rockets at the opponents’ second basemen all summer any more than I could take Darrell Porter hitting drives to the warning track. Our team has enough money to sign Reed, Tillman, and a closer, plus take on Donaldson’s remaining year. After trading Gyorko, Wacha, and Grichuk, we would be poised to strike next year and still have all our young pitchers and outfielders to go into next off season loaded for trades like this year. I remember Easton once stating an argument for not wasting innings of young arms at AAA, and I would be fine with forgoing a Davis or Holland signing with the idea of keeping some powder dry and seeing if Hudson and Reyes could move from the Memphis rotation into the pen in August.
Those are measurements to ascertain levels of superiority. They offer little to show incompetence. There is a difference. Again I am fighting a losing battle defending Fowler solely on his defensive prowess; I get that. I am defending Fowler as a winning component on our team.
They show inferiority the same way they show superiority.
I mean, I just think of the time Fowler took 4.4 seconds to run 18 yards and dropped the ball. To me, that showed he didn’t care. If you value that type of club leadership, as well as last one in, first one out, well great.
This year looks like the Cardinals are boxing themselves into corners once again, this time insisting on trades instead of free agency, last year the opposite.
Nigel, what most on here are overlooking is that Fowler, offensively last year, was very good. He may not have had a good year as far as BA, but his OPS was good and he showed more power than he had previously. I do think we could upgrade from him but I would rather address closer, 3B and SP before we address his upgrade. I think we can hold off until the trade deadline or until the next offseason to trade Fowler. At that time, I hope we have an OF prospect ready to step in.
Fowler must also play LF.
I am a bit baffled by the regular comments saying we need to upgrade at third base. It seems people must have been only seeing Gyorko in games where he did not do well. He was second on the team in WAR last year, and is a plus player both on offense and defense.
The one potential issue is that he missed some games, and has that stocky build where you wonder if his legs will hold up over the long grind. But we are not in a desperate need to improve at third base.
Right now we look pretty good, assuming everyone is relatively healthy all year. We could use some assurance at the closer spot, and there is some risk with guys like DeJong, Weaver, and Reyes as they have not been around long enough to show that their high level of play is sustainable. But all-in-all we should be better on offense, and we were not that bad last year. The jury is still out on whether or not we can successfully close games. Plus we absolutely have to improve the fundamentals. Those two areas really hampered us last year.
We all want to see another transaction or two to further improve the roster, but let’s not underestimate what we have.
I don’t think people are overlooking his offense, they simply aren’t willing to ignore his defense when the Cardinals “line” to their fans last year was that he was brought in to improve the defense.
What people are upset about is the front office is willing to overpay for a guy like Fowler, whose value was established the previous offseason, but are unwilling to overpay for a star. Now, Fowler [could be] blocking some of our younger prospects this year and the next four years.
Yes, there is no reason to cater to his desire to play RF if Ozuna has the better arm, which many of us suspect. I hope they simply don’t put Fowler in RF because that is where he wants to play. To me, he has to earn a choice of positions in the outfield.
I agree with you bicyclemike, I don’t see the rush to trade Gyorko.
We’d probably get more of a return and have a better team trading Wong and moving Gyorko to 2B. Next year, Wong’s contract catches up to Gyorko’s in terms of salary (at least moves into the same ballpark).
Yeah, it would be nice to upgrade to a Machado or Donaldson, but at what cost? If it is Grichuk, Mayers, and a pitcher below Hudson, fine. Anything higher, it doesn’t make sense.
It needs to be said – fowler is as bad defensively in the outfield as carpenter (who is average at 1b) is at other positions.
He is just about (not quite) matt holiday bad in the outfield is what is being said and not being made clear with numbers most people dont understand. And he doesnt hit like holiday in his prime or even close.
Whether that is from lack of effort or what it doesnt really matter on paper.
The reason I am so adamant to dump him … God there’s so many I cant count. We are overpaying for mediocrity and it was easily apparent well before we signed him.
We gave leake away. Fowler is doable.
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