- This topic has 2,493 replies, 76 voices, and was last updated 2 years ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Did you hear the Cardinals made the playoffs yesterday?
Yep, my mommy heard me. But what I never heard during the whole game that the Brewers also had a chance with the losses of the Phillies and Giants. Happy to make the playoffs. Now all they have to remember it wasn’t for a cup of coffee. Wouldn’t it be awful to remember your last play in MLB was to hit into a triple play? Guess you would not soon forget that.
BW – please refer to the title of this thread. My comments are appropriate. Your comment is off title. Like you point out to us at times.
25 – Shreve was a proven 5 year major league lefty reliever when he came to the Cards. As a matter of fact this season he gave up only 17 hits in 25 innings for the Mets and struck out 34. Gallegos had struck out 41 batters in only 27 1/3 innings at AAA before he was traded to us, and had already appeared in 20 major league games.
The Yankees gave value for Voit. The Cardinals simply didn’t have a position for him.
Denigrating the abilities of either Voit or Ozuna is probably not a great idea.
A sense of humor is important.
Laughing at how the Cards could have kept
Voit, Ozuna, Arozarena, etc.I’m not denigrating the abilities of Ozuna or Voit.. they’re certainly well within the top 1% of baseball players who have ever played on this earth. Maybe the top 1/10th of 1% currently. Ozuna could have stayed on this team for a measly 200K less than he’s making in Atlanta. He chose not to. That’s his right, but that means he quit on the team. Voit was a below average hitter on St Louis. They traded him for useful parts, and he became a great hitter in New York. Probably park and lineup related, but it is what it is. Neither would be hitting anywhere near as well in St Louis.
The only person who has consistently denigrated the abilities of players currently on our team is one Mr bccran. So that’s on you.
You’re right, 25. I’ve been an avid, (always positive) Cardinal fan since long before you were born, and this is the first time I’ve been down on the team. But when Mo has tried 3 times to strengthen the outfield with very marginal success, and did nothing to do it over the past off season it frosted me.
So I would assume that if bccran were GM, he would have signed Ozuna whatever amount it took to get him to stay despite his unconvincing play in St. Louis, and he would have turned down the opportunity to acquire Matthew Libertore in exchange for José Martinez and an unproven outfielder. Regarding Voit isn’t it amazing that all of our coaches and all of our front office personnel failed to realize what they had in Luke Voit! I’m not down on you, bccran, but I think what has happened with Ozuna, Arozarena, and Voit is not only extraordinary, but it defies rational explanation especially with Ozuna and Voit. Arozarena hasn’t been around long enough for the pitchers to figure him out. Let’s see how he looks at this time next year. I don’t think any mistakes were made in how these players were handled by our front office.
Mudville –
Voit – In 2017, the Cards were all set. They had Carp at 1B and Gyorko at 3B.
They also had Jose Martinez who could spell Carp at 1B. The Cards didn’t have a place for Voit. I have no problem with the Cards trading for left handed relief help down the stretch and a very talented reliever who was ready for the majors. But posters who continue to say that the coaches and the manager didn’t see talent in Voit are simply wrong. They got what they wanted for him in a trade. What would I have done? Play Carp at 3B, give Voit a real shot at 1B, and use Gyorko as a super sub. In hindsight, which is always sharp, Gyorko’s gone. Martinez is gone. And Carp is a shell. As Voit leads the majors in home runs.Ozuna – In 2019, the Cardinals ranked #26 out of 30 in average runs scored per game.
They were ranked 24th in slugging percentage. Ozuna was one of your top 3 players on the team in slugging percentage and 1 of only 3 players with an .800+ OPS. Even in a year that didn’t compare to a great year that he had in 2017 for the Fish. You could only afford to lose him if you replaced him with a proven bat. Instead, you go with Fowler, who’s not a power bat corner outfielder (you didn’t sign him for that), and 3 totally unproven youngsters. Too much of a risk when you’d had trouble scoring runs in 2019. What would I have done, when Ozuna said that he wanted to stay here? Tell him that we weren’t in a position to sign him to a long term contract, but would really like to have him back. To go see what the market would bear and bring it back to us to see if we can match it. To make room in the payroll I’d have traded Carlos and dumped Miller to someone who would pick up at least half of his salary.Arozarena – In 2019, Arozarena slashed .358/.435/.593/1.028 at Memphis. He smacked 12 home runs in only 64 games. When called up to the Cards, he slashed .300/.391/.500/.891. I don’t give up a young player like that. Especially when they Cards are short on offense. What do I do? I complete the trade by giving them Jose Martinez, one of Thomas/Bader/O’Neill and throw in a pitcher or two like a Woodford if necessary. But I tell them no on RA.
Out in LA, Mike Mayers posted a 0.9 bWAR out of the Angels bullpen this season. That would have tied him with Kim for tops on the entire 2020 Cardinals pitching staff.
Mayers was selected off waivers from the Cards last November. Again, I don’t think many around here shed a tear over it. Sometimes guys just do better with a change of scenery.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mayermi01.shtml
One thing that hasn’t been discussed in this recent conversation about Arozarena is whether or not the Rays insisted on him being in that trade for Liberatore. Maybe they said Arozarena or no trade. If that is the case, I can understand why they traded him. He hadn’t proven anything definite in the majors. In his first game with St. Louis, he went 2-4. In his 17th game, he went 2-4. In the rest of his games, he went 2-12 which is a .165 BA.
I was very disappointed that they traded Arozarena but without knowing all the details of the trade negotiations, I can’t say it shouldn’t have been made. I was an Arozarena backer who felt he would do well in the majors. I liked the fact he was a contact hitter who didn’t strike out too much and drew some walks. He is also almost 26 and seemed to be lower on the depth charts for St. Louis.
As far as Voit goes, at the time the Cardinals traded him, he had 137 PAs with the Cardinals and slashed .240/.307/.432/.739. He was 27 1/2 years old and had hit 5 home runs. He was on a pace to hit about 22 home runs in 600 PAs. Obviously, the Yankee lineup agrees with him.
Again, Forsch, if the Rays has insisted on Arozarena, I would have sweetened the pot with another player or two to see if I could have gotten the deal done. Maybe Jose Martinez, Thomas, and Woodford?
I might not have made the deal, Forsch. The Cards are pitching heavy, and already had lefties Thompson, Gomber, and Cabrera. The problem last year was offense, not pitching. And to me the best of O’Neill, Bader, Thomas, and Arozarena was Arozarena. He was a real plus the short time he was up last season. Combination of plate discipline, contact (17.7 K rate at Memphis), speed, and some power.
I was a longtime member of the Randy Arozarena fan club. I voted him higher than just about anyone else here in 2018 and had many an argument about him with folks here last year who didn’t seem to grasp that his game was going to play at the big league level. It was fairly clear at the end of last year that the Cards had an OF logjam to clear. Jmart was nearly certain to go somewhere. Ozuna was probably leaving to free agency. They still had Fowler and Bader. Then there were the youngsters. One might have gathered that the Cards’ preferred order of value was Carlson, O’Neill and then either Arozarena or Thomas. I can imagine the conversations we between Mo and Neander going like this:
Mo: Ok, so we like Liberatore. (Always have). We are offering Jose Martinez and are willing to swap draft picks. What else would you like to get this done?
Neander: Dylan Carlson
Mo: *laughs*
Neander: OK, how about Tyler O’Neill?
Mo: Hmm. No thanks. What about Lane Thomas instead?
Neander (hoping for this all along): Randy Arozarena sounds better.
Mo: OK.
Whether the deal couldn’t have gotten done some other way or not, the main point is that the Cards weren’t gonna trade Carlson or O’Neill, so it was either Arozarena or Thomas. The Rays most likely preferred Arozarena as they don’t really have great need of a CF (which is Thomas’s main pro over Arozarena). They got a guy they like in Liberatore, who if you haven’t heard got specific rave reviews from the lone summer camp report we got and is set to be in Springfield/Memphis at age 21 next year. The Rays got a guy they like in Arozarena. Seems it could be a win-win.
Other than 2 games, he didn’t do very much when he was up last season. He had a 66.7% SB%. And an extremely small sample size to glean anything real useful from.
According to all the reports, Thompson is the only lefty that we have that comes close to comparing to Liberatore. Looking at Baseball America, MLB.com and BaseballProspectus.com, Liberatore was #42, #58 and #50, respectively, in all of baseball before the 2020 season. Thompson wasn’t rated in any of their top 100. Gomber and Cabrera were never ranked in the top 100 prospects of any poll unless I am mistaken.
Jack Flaherty is probably the only pitching prospect the Cardinals have had in the last 5 years that compares to Liberatore.
We got a near ace performance in the 1st year of Mikolas. Near ace performance this year with KK. But we’re still hurting for offense.
We got a near ace performance in the 1st year of Mikolas. Near ace performance this year with KK. But we’re still hurting for offense.
Sometimes an opportunity comes that you can’t pass up. If you really believe that Arozarena fixes this offense, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. Likewise, if you think that the combo of Ozuna, Voit and Arozarena fixes the team’s woes, I’ll point you to 2016 and a great offense that was poor on the bases and in the field and kneecapped a mediocre staff to the point that it began a shuffling pattern that led to three straight non playoff years and your boy Matheny took the fall for it.
What you are really lamenting is the failure of the Cardinals farm system to produce an offensive star in about 10 years. It’s actually an astounding run of futility for a team that drafts and develops so well. If any one of those guys had turned into a consistent .850+ OPS guy, this offense looks worlds better. It just hasn’t happened. It has to soon or we will still be having these same conversations in 2022.
bccran, here is your response on April 17, 2020:
bccran
Would I have made the trade if TB insisted on RA? Probably, but I would have been pushing hard on it being any another young outfielder besides RA and DC.
That was from a thread reviewing the trade in April. I know I am sometimes guilty of changing opinion once time has past to see what could happen.
The TOR vs TBR game just started (TBS), featuring Grichuk and Arozarena batting 3rd for their clubs.
Randy G was not bad with Toronto – 12 homers and an OPS just under .800.
Randy A was great with Tampa – 7 homers in only 64 ABs, an OPS of over 1.000. Limited playing time, but he played well.
Randy G would have easily lead the Cardinals with those 12 big flies. Man, you take those two guys and Luke Voit, and what is that, some 40 homers dealt away? Then you add Ozuna to that…Well, the lesson might be to stick with you have. But I doubt we do that. We will probably trade O’Neill this winter, and he will put 35 homers over the boards next year with a .900 OPS.
Back when Matheny was manager I sensed that guys did not play as well as their potential under him because he seemed like a guy who made people uptight. He seemed too intense. I thought Schildt was just what we needed, and he has done well. But you wonder sometimes what the player personnel folks see or don’t see. Course we do not know all of the various inputs that go into making deals. And as we have said a few times – sometimes guys just need a change of scenery.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.