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14 – I believe it was injuries that precipitated the Lester and Happ trades.
bc…. that’s because the starting pitching depth chart is so weak. The guys we traded would have been more than adequate in the rotation. Mo left the cupboard barren as it turns out. So what happens to Happ and Lester when Flaherty and Mikolas come back?
Flaherty
Wainwright
Kim
Mikolas
LeBlancSo what you are suggesting is that you wanted them to acquire proven MLB hitters Ozuna, Goldy and Arenado without giving up young pitching talent? How would that have worked in the real world?
I really don’t like playing the “WHAT IF” game…. but where is the starting pitching depth? Outside of Woodford (who isn’t MLB ready) and perhaps Rondon-Oviedo (two big question marks) there is no other pitchers in the organization even close to being MLB-ready. One has to be prepared for injuries to starting pitchers. We shouldn’t have to pick up “past their prime” fill-ins. One…. maybe…. two… means that someone isn’t doing his job.
Memphis should have pitchers ready for the big team.
With all due respect, if this is not playing the “What if” game, then what is it?
“The guys we traded would have been more than adequate in the rotation.”
There is no doubt the pitching pipeline is broken. My issue is with second-guessing the trades that brought badly needed offense. Some fans may think that MLB stars can be acquired for little to nothing, but that isn’t realistic.
Yes. For years, the Cardinals said they would just trade pitching whenever they needed star hitters. They found that model is very inefficient, which appears why they are going down the path of selecting hitters very high in the draft, and why the pitching pipeline isn’t as robust as it once was.
That’s simply wrong, LA. Look at all the pitching the Cardinals have traded to secure position players – Marco G., Weaver,
Gallen, Alcantara, Gomber, etc.It’s always a series of events that leads you to the present state of existence. In the Cardinals’ case it’s been a chain reaction of bad decisions.
So what it the reason for it? Is the fault trading away good mound prospects to get offense? Was that done because the Cards didn’t adequately draft/develop position players? Is that what led to bad high-cost free agent signings, which blocked the development of young talent, which led to trading away young talent that performed much better elsewhere, round and round, etc.? So pick a reason as the genesis. Mo and DeWitt own them all. They need to do better. Much better. Fans who are still interested should critique them on this mess.
That more aligns with my view, Euro. There is not usually one factor that predominates, but a series of decisions over time.
Forsch I really enjoyed reply #168854. That’s a good way to look at it.
I doubt ownership will pony up for Scherzer, but KK and a JA Happ type could work out of the pen with Cabrera until needed in the rotation.
I honestly think the current state of the Cardinals starts back at Oscar Taveras’ death. They hitched the future to having him anchor the OF. When he passed, they signed Heyward. When he left, they tried a year with homegrown players. When that didn’t work, they signed Fowler. When that didn’t work, they were a little tight on money. Next attempt was Ozuna. Then Goldschmidt and finally Arozarena. All this time, they were developing pitchers but not hitters. Once they figured out they needed hitters in the minors, they went all out for hitters but also drafted pitchers that didn’t make it. Now, they are trying to address the pitching shortfall. Hopefully, the system stabilizes and we have a good mix in a couple of years.
I think the state of the pipeline is due to problems developing and evaluating talent. That and unwillingness to eat a bad contract resulting in a logjam at the top. That and being too cheap to pay the in house guys who make it.
Isnt the main question at this point who is going to be in the rotation in 2022?
Especially considering that 2021 is just about a lost season.
I think the basis for our pitching problem is Mikolas needing two years to come back from surgery rather than one year, plus Flaherty getting injured somehow, plus both Liberatore and Thompson pitching like low round picks instead of the first rounders that they are, plus Kim having injury woes. Most of this, IMO, is related to the outlier of a year that was 2020. Oviedo survived his ‘Baptism under fire’ and looks like he holds a lot of promise in the near future. Rondon seems to be coming on strong. I think our pitching will look much stronger in 2022 even if they don’t make a major trade for pitching.
With Reyes’ injury history, and the kind of success he’s been having as closer, I would say flat out not to take him out of the closer role.
I would be very surprised if Wainwright is not in the rotation next year. I like LeBlanc as a cheapish depth piece for next year too. He has been a good find.
Mo and DeWitt own them all. They need to do better. Much better. Fans who are still interested should critique them on this mess.
Spoken like a true Cardinal fan.
Its not like Memphis is the only affiliate that can’t provide any pitchers to move up. Its a problem with the entire system. The only starters showing any consistency are Pike at Springfield (AA) Lunn and Pereira at Peoria (adv A). If you’re looking for help down the road you may have to wait for the draft class of ’21 to fine their way to St. Louis. Liberatore-Thompson-Rondon and Oviedo all have some good projections for ’22/’23 but are not slam-dunks.
How much longer are Flaherty-Wainwright-Kim-Mikolas LeBlanc-Lester-Happ-CMartinez-going to be pitching for the Cards? Having fingers crossed hasn’t been working out for the FO.
Marco, Weaver, Gallen, Alcantara, Gomber, Locey, etc. have been traded. Gingery was a poor draft choice. Too risky.
Now we have Libby, Thompson, Oviedo, and Rondon in the wings. That’s not bad at all. McGreevy and Love should move pretty fast through the system.There is no doubt the pitching pipeline is broken. My issue is with second-guessing the trades that brought badly needed offense.
There is a clear pattern of poor trades and contract extensions that have plagued this team for the last few seasons. The big money handed out to disappointing players could have been spent more wisely. There should be some accountability and there should be a fan vibe that DeWitt and Mozeliak can pick up on. Is that asking too much for?
For years, the Cardinals said they would just trade pitching whenever they needed star hitters.
That’s simply wrong, LA. Look at all the pitching the Cardinals have traded to secure position players
Reading comprehension helps.
Waino has made almost $150,000,000.00 playing professional baseball. He has a wife, 4 daughters, and an adopted son
living at St. Simons Island in Georgia. What’s his motivation for coming back for another year? And being away from his family at least another 7 1/2 months in 2022.
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