2021 Rotation

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  • #168901
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    14 – I believe it was injuries that precipitated the Lester and Happ trades.

    bc…. that’s because the starting pitching depth chart is so weak. The guys we traded would have been more than adequate in the rotation. Mo left the cupboard barren as it turns out. So what happens to Happ and Lester when Flaherty and Mikolas come back?

    Flaherty
    Wainwright
    Kim
    Mikolas
    LeBlanc

    #168902
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    So what you are suggesting is that you wanted them to acquire proven MLB hitters Ozuna, Goldy and Arenado without giving up young pitching talent? How would that have worked in the real world?

    #168905
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    I really don’t like playing the “WHAT IF” game…. but where is the starting pitching depth? Outside of Woodford (who isn’t MLB ready) and perhaps Rondon-Oviedo (two big question marks) there is no other pitchers in the organization even close to being MLB-ready. One has to be prepared for injuries to starting pitchers. We shouldn’t have to pick up “past their prime” fill-ins. One…. maybe…. two… means that someone isn’t doing his job.

    Memphis should have pitchers ready for the big team.

    #168913
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    With all due respect, if this is not playing the “What if” game, then what is it?

    “The guys we traded would have been more than adequate in the rotation.”

    There is no doubt the pitching pipeline is broken. My issue is with second-guessing the trades that brought badly needed offense. Some fans may think that MLB stars can be acquired for little to nothing, but that isn’t realistic.

    #168919
    LACardFan
    Participant

    Free

    Yes. For years, the Cardinals said they would just trade pitching whenever they needed star hitters. They found that model is very inefficient, which appears why they are going down the path of selecting hitters very high in the draft, and why the pitching pipeline isn’t as robust as it once was.

    #168920
    bccran
    Participant

    That’s simply wrong, LA. Look at all the pitching the Cardinals have traded to secure position players – Marco G., Weaver,
    Gallen, Alcantara, Gomber, etc.

    #168922
    Euro Dandy
    Participant

    Free

    It’s always a series of events that leads you to the present state of existence. In the Cardinals’ case it’s been a chain reaction of bad decisions.

    So what it the reason for it? Is the fault trading away good mound prospects to get offense? Was that done because the Cards didn’t adequately draft/develop position players? Is that what led to bad high-cost free agent signings, which blocked the development of young talent, which led to trading away young talent that performed much better elsewhere, round and round, etc.? So pick a reason as the genesis. Mo and DeWitt own them all. They need to do better. Much better. Fans who are still interested should critique them on this mess.

    #168924
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    That more aligns with my view, Euro. There is not usually one factor that predominates, but a series of decisions over time.

    #168931
    jj-cf-stl
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Forsch I really enjoyed reply #168854. That’s a good way to look at it.

    I doubt ownership will pony up for Scherzer, but KK and a JA Happ type could work out of the pen with Cabrera until needed in the rotation.

    #168932
    forsch31
    Participant

    Free

    I honestly think the current state of the Cardinals starts back at Oscar Taveras’ death. They hitched the future to having him anchor the OF. When he passed, they signed Heyward. When he left, they tried a year with homegrown players. When that didn’t work, they signed Fowler. When that didn’t work, they were a little tight on money. Next attempt was Ozuna. Then Goldschmidt and finally Arozarena. All this time, they were developing pitchers but not hitters. Once they figured out they needed hitters in the minors, they went all out for hitters but also drafted pitchers that didn’t make it. Now, they are trying to address the pitching shortfall. Hopefully, the system stabilizes and we have a good mix in a couple of years.

    #168934
    blingboy
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I think the state of the pipeline is due to problems developing and evaluating talent. That and unwillingness to eat a bad contract resulting in a logjam at the top. That and being too cheap to pay the in house guys who make it.

    #168936
    Ratsbuddy
    Participant

    Free

    Isnt the main question at this point who is going to be in the rotation in 2022?

    Especially considering that 2021 is just about a lost season.

    #168938
    bccran
    Participant

    Flaherty
    Hudson
    Mikolas
    Kim
    Reyes

    #168942
    blingboy
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Hopefully two or three of them would be healthy at any point.

    #168943
    mudville
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I think the basis for our pitching problem is Mikolas needing two years to come back from surgery rather than one year, plus Flaherty getting injured somehow, plus both Liberatore and Thompson pitching like low round picks instead of the first rounders that they are, plus Kim having injury woes. Most of this, IMO, is related to the outlier of a year that was 2020. Oviedo survived his ‘Baptism under fire’ and looks like he holds a lot of promise in the near future. Rondon seems to be coming on strong. I think our pitching will look much stronger in 2022 even if they don’t make a major trade for pitching.

    #168944
    ZTR
    Participant

    Free

    That would seem to be a pretty good rotation if their arms don’t fall off.

    #168945
    jj-cf-stl
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I like bccrans rotation list but have to add Wainwright to mine.

    #168954
    mudville
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    With Reyes’ injury history, and the kind of success he’s been having as closer, I would say flat out not to take him out of the closer role.

    #168970
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I would be very surprised if Wainwright is not in the rotation next year. I like LeBlanc as a cheapish depth piece for next year too. He has been a good find.

    #169043
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    Mo and DeWitt own them all. They need to do better. Much better. Fans who are still interested should critique them on this mess.

    Spoken like a true Cardinal fan.

    Its not like Memphis is the only affiliate that can’t provide any pitchers to move up. Its a problem with the entire system. The only starters showing any consistency are Pike at Springfield (AA) Lunn and Pereira at Peoria (adv A). If you’re looking for help down the road you may have to wait for the draft class of ’21 to fine their way to St. Louis. Liberatore-Thompson-Rondon and Oviedo all have some good projections for ’22/’23 but are not slam-dunks.

    How much longer are Flaherty-Wainwright-Kim-Mikolas LeBlanc-Lester-Happ-CMartinez-going to be pitching for the Cards? Having fingers crossed hasn’t been working out for the FO.

    #169044
    bccran
    Participant

    Marco, Weaver, Gallen, Alcantara, Gomber, Locey, etc. have been traded. Gingery was a poor draft choice. Too risky.
    Now we have Libby, Thompson, Oviedo, and Rondon in the wings. That’s not bad at all. McGreevy and Love should move pretty fast through the system.

    #169045
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    There is no doubt the pitching pipeline is broken. My issue is with second-guessing the trades that brought badly needed offense.

    There is a clear pattern of poor trades and contract extensions that have plagued this team for the last few seasons. The big money handed out to disappointing players could have been spent more wisely. There should be some accountability and there should be a fan vibe that DeWitt and Mozeliak can pick up on. Is that asking too much for?

    #169051
    LACardFan
    Participant

    Free

    For years, the Cardinals said they would just trade pitching whenever they needed star hitters.

    That’s simply wrong, LA. Look at all the pitching the Cardinals have traded to secure position players

    Reading comprehension helps.

    #169052
    bccran
    Participant

    Waino has made almost $150,000,000.00 playing professional baseball. He has a wife, 4 daughters, and an adopted son
    living at St. Simons Island in Georgia. What’s his motivation for coming back for another year? And being away from his family at least another 7 1/2 months in 2022.

    #169053
    bccran
    Participant

    LA – showing a little understanding helps too. Capisce?

Viewing 25 posts - 251 through 275 (of 543 total)
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