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Would Friedman be there if they didn’t have the money to pay him more than the Rays and the ability to put together a better payroll and development budget?
Well to be fair, I would imagine just about every team in MLB would have more resources than the Rays. How they churn out winners on their budget is a testament to their development system and talent evaluation system.
Since I wasn’t involved, I’d like to highlight just how much page 17 rocks. That was an enjoyable read. Well done.
gscottar said:
Are we supposed to take EVERYTHING Mo says as gospel?
I cannot speak for others, but I have filters and know better than to try to refute one example by suggesting it applies to every possible situation. That is straw man 101.
In this particular case, yes, I believe he was being honest. The reason is that his assessment appears to be accurate.
I wonder how Friedman would have operated the Cardinals. The job wasn’t open when he was looking, but one would think St. Louis would have been considered a step up from the Rays (though the Dodgers step was bigger). I also wonder how directly Dodgers ownership is involved in major baseball operations decisions. We know it is very much the case in St. Louis.
I also wonder how directly Dodgers ownership is involved in major baseball operations decisions. We know it is very much the case in St. Louis.
I’m starting to believe this is a detriment to the Cardinals.
It’s a good general question, BHC.
BDW has always been a shrewd baseball man.
Extremely knowledgeable. But is he getting more conservative as he approaches his 80s. Sometimes that happens.The ironic thing about the Cardinal-Dodger discussion is when I compare Mo to Friedman my intent is to give Mo a very high compliment. Why that is taken as some kind of insult or a jab at the Cardinals I do not know.
gscott, I don’t know where the $64 million for the Dodgers in 2022 comes from. Looking at Baseball Reference, they show the Ddogers at $71.4 million for just Betts, Price, Pollack, Muncy and Joe Kelly. That doesn’t include Kershaw, Jansen or Seager who will be free agents. It also doesn’t include Cody Bellinger, who will be in his 2nd year of arbitration, or Walker Buehler, who will be in his 1st year.
I think that the Dodgers will start to separate themselves from the Cardinals in salaries once again starting in 2022, if not before.
Thank you stlcard25 for clarifying my position. As always I am in agreement with bccran, too.
We use our resources well. but I firmly believe we have untapped cash reserves that would be wisely spent on Matt Chapman or Lindor if they could be had for our excess of riches in young pitching and outfielders.
The ironic thing about the Cardinal-Dodger discussion is when I compare Mo to Friedman my intent is to give Mo a very high compliment. Why that is taken as some kind of insult or a jab at the Cardinals I do not know.
I don’t see it as a jab at the Cards at all. It’s not their fault that the Dodgers have massively more resources and utilize them effectively. I hope the Cards can get back to using theirs in the best way possible as well.
I also do not see it as an insult or a jab, though the topic does seem to arise frequently. I just don’t see it being all that valid of a comparison for reasons already stated.
P.S. At least until they finally won their first World Series since 1988 two months ago, it seems to me that the Dodgers should have been the ones flattered to be compared to the Cardinals, not the other way around. After all, when all is said and done, championships are everyone’s goal and that had been a major problem for LA for 32 years – until 2020.
That Rolls may be really shiny with lotsa chrome and all the options, and now it was finally was able to win Best of Show! 😉
I can’t get past how someone could say that the Cards are not a small/mid-market team, when they clearly are. Then to try to compare how they do business to the Dodgers, who like the Yankees, are in one of the largest markets, is just crazy. Teams like the Yankees and Dodgers can do what the Cardinals do, in terms of models, but the Cardinals are never going to be able to do what those teams do in terms of spending.
The point I have been trying to make all of these months, apparently unsuccessfully, is that the Friedman model is not based solely on spending huge sums of money. They build from within primarily then supplement with high end trades. I don’t know why that isn’t so obvious to see. Let go of the old stereotypes. Bringing up what the Dodgers did or didn’t do in the 1980’s, 90’s, and 2000’s pre-Friedman is irrelevant to this discussion.
I am not a Dodger fan by any means. Our clashes with them in the playoffs a decade ago were epic and I couldn’t stand the Adrian Gonzalez mickey mouse ears routine he did. I am just saying that I think Friedman is the best executive in MLB and they are the model franchise because of how they utilize every tool in their toolbox. They don’t just sit around and write checks while playing video games. Internal player development is their core as it is with the Cardinals.
I have never said that the Cardinals will match the Dodgers in payroll spending, although is there anyone on this board who thinks the Cardinals couldn’t have a $200M payroll in non-covid times if they wanted to? I think they could do it but they choose not to. However, there are many similarities. Both pride themselves on using homegrown players as their core, both supplement with trades, and both avoid signing high priced free agents. Yes, the Dodgers do it at a bit of higher dollar level but the core tenants are very similar.
The big overall point of all this is that I think the Cardinals can emulate the Dodgers to become more successful, albeit on a slightly smaller scale. Walt Jocketty couldn’t do that but Mo can. Jocketty was more of a Dombrowski and Epstein kind of GM going for the quick fix but Mo is more like Friedman, meaning analytical, detail oriented, and prudent. It is the highest of compliments and should be taken that way.
I can’t get past how someone could say that the Cards are not a small/mid-market team, when they clearly are.
They clearly aren’t. Small/mid market teams don’t finish 2nd in attendance and have their franchises valued seventh highest in MLB.
gscott, I don’t know where the $64 million for the Dodgers in 2022 comes from.
It comes from Cots, and yes it is pre-arb which I mentioned in my original comments.
“Nats and Padres are emerging as possible fallback options for Yadier Molina. The Phillies, Angels and Yankees also seek a catcher. Of course it makes sense for the Cardinals and the first ballot Hall of Famer to work it out, but in free agency you never know.” – Heyman
Nats and Padres are emerging as possible fallback options for Yadier Molina. The Phillies, Angels and Yankees also seek a catcher. Of course it makes sense for the Cardinals and the first ballot Hall of Famer to work it out, but in free agency you never know.
— Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) December 19, 2020
both (Cardinals and Dodgers) avoid signing high priced free agents
Maybe that can be said of LAD but not STL. That has been what has taken this team to where it is now.
Not predominantly, as Carpenter, Mikolas and Martinez were all extensions given to players already on the team. (Same as Goldy and the Dodgers with Betts.) Frankly, so was Molina’s $20 MM per year drain, but that is off the books.
Granted, Fowler was not an extension. Cecil also was not, but his deal was not high-priced in the bigger picture (and he is done and gone). Miller is not a bad contract, IMO, nor has it been great.
My point is that the Cardinals’ current payroll constriction was caused more by extensions than high-priced free agent signings.
Some interesting spins across these three comments… Schaeffer to Bennett to Ackerman…
Yes sir. Yadi has a lot of pride and I always admire how he engages his fans. He walks the walk.
— Tom Ackerman (@Ackerman1120) December 20, 2020
By not staying quiet, the Molina brothers are turning even some of their most ardent supporters against Yadi.
For example, I questioned Dan Buffa when he wrote earlier in the offseason that the Cardinals should sign Molina at all costs. To his credit, he now admits the public posturing led him to a change of heart…
The St. Louis Cardinals have paid #Yadi $155 million dollars for his services. One can't mistake Molina's impact in St. Louis, but I'm tired of the "appreciation" whining going on. #stlcards https://t.co/4JAHSGbYyk
— Dan Buffa (@buffa82) December 19, 2020
“They move young players so he can play everyday.”
1.710475
That’s Molina and Carson Kelly’s brWAR / 650 PA’s over the 2019 & 2020 seasons. An exact match, and their salaries sure weren’t.Fangraphs prefers Kelly during the same time span. The FO can have an equivalent player for near minimum, and they did have, so do they continue down this road again?
It is ironic how they easily recall and relate all Yadi has done for the team, but forget how the Cardinals have spent 155 million dollars impacting their families, communities, and legacies. I wish they demanded respect for the teams and faithful fans who provided everything the Molinas have today.
I think the Cardinals and most fans want Yadi to return. He no doubt still has value whether it is occasionally getting the clutch hit or the extreme confidence the pitching staff has in him. The question is AT WHAT COST? They have already overpaid him once. Why should they have to do it again? There are several areas of the team that need to be addressed and only so much money to spend (at least that is what they tell us).
Are intangibles and nostalgia worth another overpay?
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