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As much as we would like BillyMo to trade away our fringe players, and keep the lineup intact, he won’t. It would cost too large an outlay of cash in free agency to acquire the amount of pitching we need.
They will trade from the lineup. It’s the only way to acquire a “young stud” pitcher and avoid multiple top of market free agent signings.
One splash FA SP signing. One cost controlled SP for Gorman or Noot or Donovan+. One vet FA SP signing needing to re-establish his value, and a reliever or two to see what sticks.
They might raise payroll by 10mil, since they sold off the FA’s at the deadline and reclaimed about 6.5mil.
This might make us competitive, depending on who they target, but there is only contenders and pretenders. Two offseasons, and two more deadlines, and we could contend. Welcome to the rebuild.
Two offseasons, and two more deadlines, and we could contend. Welcome to the rebuild
Probably not a popular opinion, but trying to do it all in one offseason isn’t realistic or wise. The teams with deep pockets fail at buying pitching. Like it or not, I think some patience would prevent more mistakes.
Not the most popular thinking, but Hudson, Thompson, Woodford, McGreevy, Graceffo, Roby, Kloffenstein, Robberse, Hjerpe, Hence, and Rom are all intriguing.
As much as we would like BillyMo to trade away our fringe players, and keep the lineup intact, he won’t. It would cost too large an outlay of cash in free agency to acquire the amount of pitching we need.
They will trade from the lineup. It’s the only way to acquire a “young stud” pitcher and avoid multiple top of market free agent signings.
One splash FA SP signing. One cost controlled SP for Gorman or Noot or Donovan+. One vet FA SP signing needing to re-establish his value, and a reliever or two to see what sticks.
They might raise payroll by 10mil, since they sold off the FA’s at the deadline and reclaimed about 6.5mil.
This might make us competitive, depending on who they target, but there is only contenders and pretenders. Two offseasons, and two more deadlines, and we could contend. Welcome to the rebuild.
Well stated jj. We are probably going to have to bite the bullet and trade someone we don’t want to trade. I would hate to lose either Gorman or Donovan but O’Neill, Carlson, Burleson, Baker, and Kiz probably don’t have enough trade value to get the quality we need.
Probably not a popular opinion, but trying to do it all in one offseason isn’t realistic or wise. The teams with deep pockets fail at buying pitching. Like it or not, I think some patience would prevent more mistakes.
I think you are correct KCB. We have really dug ourself a hole with our pitching mess and it might take two offseasons instead of one to be a contender again. I don’t expect the Cardinals to state that publicly though because it wouldn’t be good for ticket sales.
Not the most popular thinking, but Hudson, Thompson, Woodford, McGreevy, Graceffo, Roby, Kloffenstein, Robberse, Hjerpe, Hence, and Rom are all intriguing.
I agree they are all intriguing bccran but a team that states they are planning to contend in 2024 couldn’t realistically rely on those names to be important pieces of the staff. They would be more intriguing for a team like the A’s or Royals but not for a stated contender. If Mo has another passive offseason on the pitching front like last year I can only conclude he is on a kamikaze mission.
The only players that are not tradeable in my opinion are Gorman (LH power doesn’t grow on trees) and Walker (way to much potential), but those will be the two asked for the most.
Seattle has a severe need for a 2B and OF help.
George Kirby for Donovan, O’neill, Yepez and McGreevy. Who says no? Edit: Throw in Hudson if need be.
gscottar said:
If Mo has another passive offseason on the pitching front like last year I can only conclude he is on a kamikaze mission…
Especially so after he went on record with the plan to get three pitchers. They need a splash to sell 2024 season tickets.
Instead, if he said publicly he is intrigued by the in-house options and acted as if that was enough, it would go very badly for the 2024 team on the PR front before they ever take the field.
I can only speculate how the offensive players feel, but they saw and felt what happened this year far more intensely than any of us. If the Cards chose to not address the pitching, it probably would not go over well with the veterans. Plus we would be forced to endure months of more speculation about trading Arenado…
CFICT said:
George Kirby for Donovan, O’neill, Yepez and McGreevy. Who says no? Edit: Throw in Hudson if need be.
NO.
George Kirby was visibly frustrated postgame.
He gave up the game-tying two-run homer on his 102nd pitch.
"I wish I wasn't out there for the 7th to be honest."
Says there will be a conversation soon | #SeaUsRise pic.twitter.com/17XmheTb1O
— Jake García (@Jake_M_Garcia) September 9, 2023
Johnny’s formulated a plan to get three pitchers, eh? When I think of the last 3 SP’ers Johnny’s signed, I think of Matz, Mikolas and Leake. When I think of relievers, I think of Cecil, Holland and Miller. We ought to be in good shape…
Signing top tier pitching is risky business. Especially this year when we will have high draft choices. The Cardinals need to invest in a system that supplies young controlled pitching to the major league roster. Giving up high draft choices for short term success isn’t the way to do that. And I don’t think you do it in one year.
I’m curious how y’all feel about which of our pitchers return next season.
We will add new arms this winter, but which pitchers on our 40man, MUST be on next seasons pitching staff (for you)?
Forget contracts and all that. Name the ones you want back.
CFICT,
I don’t know McGreevy much, but I do know Kirby is a SP2, and I’m not holding him saying something stupid after a loss, against him.Helsley and Romero are definite Musts.
Mikolas, Matz, Thompson, are all still very needed so I guess they all qualify.
I guess that’s it for Musts. But I’d still like to have Liberatore, Hudson, Pallante, Gallegos, Rom, King, Naughton, and Rodriguez. They are each either solid or have upside potential. Plus, they almost all have minor league options. I’m not actively looking to replace anyone from this group.
I’m indifferent about Woodford, Thomas and Zuniga. If we can upgrade, then all the better. Some may disagree. But I don’t see much potential with any of these 3. Woodford can be our long reliever and that’s fine. But Rom would be equally effective.
I don’t want back VerHagan, Naile, Barnes, Lawrence, Leahy, or Suarez. I think we’ve already seen the best these guys have and it’s not good enough. Open those spots up first for Rule 5 and free agents.
However they acquire pitching, I believe the Cardinals will stay payroll neutral, or better. Waino’s 17M will be off the books, and all, or part of, Contreras’ 18M will be off the books, and it wouldn’t surprise me to see Goldy’s 26M off the books.
Helsley is not a must for me. He wants to be on the field about as bad as O’Neill does. At least that’s the impression. Ben Frederickson has alluded to that in a few recent columns as well.
Romero is the only pitcher on this staff I would definitely want next year. Maybe Thompson.
I don’t understand not wanting Helsley. Who do you replace him with? Verhagen? Elite velocity and getting better with his secondaries. I would extend him 2 or 3 years. I would keep him, King, Romero, and Gallegos. All other relief spots would be open.
If the intent is to designate which pitchers are untouchable, while there are no superstars, they have to keep a base number of players to add on to. They can’t turn over 10 spots, for example.
Realistically, if they keep six or seven pitchers, it means six or seven more newcomers would still be needed. That would require a lot of good decisions to be made in a difficult area. But three starters and three or four relievers may be their challenge this winter.
I consider the chance Helsley stays on the field enough to be worth any kind of contract almost zero.
As to Kirby, intangibles are hard to figure and easy to look away from. He could have said ‘a top shelf starter should be able to go 7’ or ‘i need to be able to keep it togaether when I am getting tired’ or ‘my manager should be able to count on me for 102 pitches’. I have no use at all for a ptcher who doesn’t want to be out there for 7th inning. We just got rid of sulky Flaherty, we don’t need another weiner.
Mikolas
JoJo
Thompson
HelsleyThere will be carry overs because we won’t be acquiring 9 new pitchers. These four I must see on next seasons roster.
The wildcard for me with the current bullpen is what they would look like with a decent starting 5 in front of them. The weaker the starting 5, the stronger your bullpen needs to be and vice versa. We didn’t have either this year, and you see what we got. We know right now we need 3 starters stronger than anyone we have if we want our starting group to be considered a strength. Tough job ahead for the front office to turn this around.
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