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McGreevy had control, Williams had two out pitches. Who had the higher ceiling?
2 plus pitches without strong command can very easily lead to a career pen arm. Cardinals are notorious for taking the safer route. If that 2 pitch pitcher can develop a 3rd usable pitch and command then they can be a stud, but without those you have a pen arm you took in the first round and looks like a bust.
THE CARDINAL FRONT OFFICE DOES NOT WANT A VETERAN MANAGER! We haven’t had one since 2011 so that should be obvious.
I agree. Mo and Girsh want to build the roster and have a Manger they can tell want to do with them like they are playing OOTP. They don’t want input and pushback.
If that 2 pitch pitcher can develop a 3rd usable pitch and command then they can be a stud, but without those you have a pen arm you took in the first round and looks like a bust.
He had 3-4 pitches. The knock on Williams was that he was a reliever his first two seasons in college.
I’d consider O’Neill, Donovan, Carlson, Herrera (unfortunately), Burleson, Gomez, Yepez, Baker, Dunn,
If you want a good pitcher, you should probably be willing to part with either Gorman or Walker.
Gorman and Walker are a big part of the future. Wouldn’t trade them at all. Whom did we trade to get Goldschmidt? Whom did we trade to get Arenado? Getting decent pitchers may not take all that much. Luken Baker leads all of AAA in home runs with 33. In 4 1/2 months. Prime candidate along with Herrera to bring back a very good starter.
It’s my view that committing large amounts of cash over extended periods of time to a FA or any pitcher is a much more risky proposition than the same commitment to a position player and should be avoided at all costs. Too many bad things can quickly go wrong. Just a few seasons ago the Redbirds looked to be in tiptop shape in the area of SP’ing with the seemingly bright future of both Jack Flaherty and Dakota Hudson who both found a pathway to the Big Leagues through the Cardinal minor league system, but injuries to both doused the lights, so to speak. I’m normally one of the first in line to find fault with the royal Redbird brass, but I’m genuinely reluctant to critisize Billy Jr. and his entourage of underlings for appearing extremely hesitant to toss large amounts of money over an extended period of time at a name brand FA SP’er. It’s my belief that the balanced and sound of mind way to obtain effective SP’ing is to develop young talent and employ people at the Big League level who have proven success in the area of instruction and using that talent in a manner that achieves further success. The Cardinals used to have several baseball people who were really good at that sort of thing. Furthermore, trades can certainly bring nice results as history proves with names like John Tudor, Adam Wainwright and Joaquin Andujar, the last name being acquired for Tony Scott…Haha! And I’m not entirely opposed to taking a chance on a FA pitcher only because Chris Carpenter was signed as a FA for the astronomical sum of $300,000…Sometimes you simply get lucky!
I hope everybody realizes that 4/5ths of the 2024 rotation is just about set. That includes the following:
Mikolas
Matz
Hudson
LiberatoreThat could change but I am confident that’s the plan now considering the resurgence of the latter three. That leaves us with needing only one starter for 2024. And that will probably be a 3/4 starter. We can get that for some of the subs. Or we can sign one via free agency.
r/Esteemed Rat
I don’t think the Cards are comfortable yet with Hudson and Liberatore.
They made a mistake in 2022 and 2023 by not getting more depth for their rotation. I wouldn’t be surprised if they included one or two of Graceffo, McGreevy, Hjerpe, and Mautz in a trade package, along with the position players I’ve already suggested as trade bait. They need a strong, healthy, proven rotation going into next season. The fans expect it, and deserve it.They will buy one starter
Snell or Nola feel like the targets right now…Yamamoto feels possible but unlikely
I then think Moz will go vet short (believing in his youngsters)… like Paxton or Rich Hill
or he tries to out think the market and we end up with some guy coming back from Asia or a VDH clone
he MAY look for a trade, but they will want the guys we dont want to give up so either we end up with a bad trade losing too much or we lose a really good player for something that still probably has warts
me:
Nola
try to trade for Kopech or maybe Sandoval from LAA (though i think Sandoval will cost too much)
kick tires on Lorenzen depending on price and lengththinking is that Kopech and Lorenzen’s stuff i think plays in the pen if they dont work out in rotation or a kid breaks through
what probably happens:
M Perez for too much
trade for Paul Blackburn
R Hill….who we get 3 years too late to be worth itTweet from Denton:
” John Mozeliak on offseason needs: “Realistically, we know we have to add three starters this offseason. We know we have to add depth. We went into the season thinking that we would have that covered. It didn’t work out that way. …”
“Having a repeat of that would not be in the best interest of the franchise. So I think our approach is going to be very aggressive on the pitching side. We’ll see where it takes us.”Just a few comments…
LACardsFan’s post about Stroman, Gray, and Snell, and Willianms being late round draft choices pretty much sunk my proposition that the Cardinals’ pitching woes were a result of picking ‘best available’ in the later rounds instead of going for pitchers. However, that’s a pretty small sample size and I think it’s still safe to say that the best pitchers are almost always gone by the later rounds. One thing I’ve wondered about is how it is the Cleveland and LA Dodgers, and Tampa Bay seem to be good at finding really good pitching prospects. Is it because they have more scouts than other teams? Is it blind luck? My best guess, and a guess it is, is that there are certain scouts who are just stars at evaluating pitching prospects. And if a ball club has one of those kinds of scouts in their organization, then that makes the difference. The problem is that, just like superstar players, superstar scouts are hard to find, and when an organization finds one, they don’t let him go.Second. Shane Bieber is still a possibility. Logan Gilbert is also a possibility, but less so, in my opinion, unless the Mariners come down from their ridiculous demand for Nootbaar in a trade for Gilbert.
Third. I don’t see any really appealing free agents to throw money at this year with the possible exception of Aaron Nola.
Fourth. The Cardinals surely knew what they were getting when they signed Contreras. They held out for a long time before putting the ink on the paper. They probably did it for fear of backlash from the fans if they didn’t do something. Herrera had a lousy year in 2022, and for the Cardinals to show up at spring training with Knizner and a low level free agent backup would have been grounds for rioting in the streets of St. Louis. The TCN website, for sure, would have had their computer hardware overheated.
Fifthy (although I could probably rattle on about other things) I couldn’t care less about DeWitt making money on Ballpark Village. I see it as an asset to the City of St. Louis especially with the demise of the Washington Avenue entertainment district.
One thing I’ve wondered about is how it is the Cleveland and LA Dodgers, and Tampa Bay seem to be good at finding really good pitching prospects. Is it because they have more scouts than other teams? Is it blind luck?
Talent evaluation is part of it but there is also the development side. Two different organizations could draft the same exact player and get different results.
The Cardinals have batted an NL-worst .184 with the bases loaded this season.
Saw that mentioned in a P-D article. My point being it hasn’t just been the pitching. That kind of offense is not going to contend either. I wonder if Mo has a plan for that.
The Mets have started cleaning out some front office staff. Wonks and polo shirts walking the plank.
I’ve noticed that the Mets have also supplanted the Nationals as the denizen of last place in NLE. That makes me happy. I’ve never held more deep seated contempt for any other team than the NY Mets of the mid to late 80’s and the residue of that contempt continues to drive me to detest that franchise. I should probably seek professional counseling to emancipate myself from those ingrained ill feelings…To me, the Cubs are adorable little baby bears who are entirely harmless in comparison to the hated NY Mets.
The Mets are also my least favorite team. The thing is that their fans are also happy to see the Cards in the cellar….. not to mention the Yanks.
As much as I despised those Mets, I’m now able to at least acknowledge how good that 108 W ’86 team was. They entirely dominated the NLE from start to finish that season. I recall really pulling for the Astros to knock them off in that season’s NLCS, but despite having both CYA winner Mike Scott and HOF’er Nolan Ryan as members of what was essentially a 4 man rotation, the Astros, who were led by former Herzog underling Hal Lanier in his first season as the Houston manager, couldn’t hold off the Mets. Then, to rub salt in my wounds, poor Bill Buckner couldn’t get the oven mitt down to snag Wilson’s slow roller in game 6 of that year’s WS. At any rate, ’86 remains fresh in my mind and may have provided me with the best LCS game I’ve ever witnessed in the form of the 11 inning game 5 of that series. I can still hear Al Michael’s voice as he called that epic game saying after returning from a commercial break in extra innings, “Welcome back to Anaheim…The battle continues to rage!”
I’d love to bring Quintana back from the Mets. He’s the perfect 1yr gap guy to slot in at the back of the ‘new look’ rotation.
Honestly Montgomery is making a lot of sense too. If they could get Montgomery and Quintana, then nab a SP1/2 like Nola or Yamamoto, we will be looking really good heading into 2024.
An underrated Met that could be traded may be Senga. 31 years old and on a decent contract. Maybe we can package some guys together and get both of them? I don’t know what’s fair, Donovan, Herrera, and Carlson?
That’s feels right. Gets some good pitching, but feel the pain.
I would be happy to see Monty and Quintana back. Q will be 35 by opening day, so there is that risk.
Pads, so the proposal is:
Q and Senga
for
Donovan, Herrera and Carlson?It got kinda confusing with Monty mixed in, but he’s a FA, so is the above correct?
Well I hope they aren’t totally sold on the 4 pitchers mentioned earlier, mikolas, matz, Hudson, and liberatore. If they are, we will be here in the same place next season more than likely. Hudson is a solid 4 when healthy. Still not sold at all on matz and libetore. Mikolas is getting old now so shouldn’t really be penciling him into anything. Also our manager sucks and I’m not sure any lineup we have can overcome him.
The very first item on this winter’s chain of events is BDW has to decide if Mo is the right guy to lead the org going forward. He will not decide that purely upon wins and losses, but from the viewpoint of a business man overseeing a big time business enterprise. That gets into areas we don’t know too much about. It makes it hard to have any feel for how that will go. But everything else comes after that.
I wouldn’t give the scenario of Mo leaving at more than about 2%. This spring, he received an extension through 2025 and I have heard nothing to suggest his position has eroded.
I know that isn’t what a lot of folks want, but that is my reading of the situation.
P.S. For those who might refer to the Jocketty firing, that situation was very different. In that time, the organization was having a major internal political battle within between the Luhnow and Jocketty camps that had to be addressed.
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