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gscottar
The bullpen has been a problem but the rotation has been a bigger problem. The solution has to start with the rotation which would then make fixing the bullpen easier.
Exactly. These starters can all backfill the bullpen. In 2023, we had the backfill options of Woodford, Hudson, Thompson, and Pallante ~ combined ERA of 4.84 roughly.
Compare that to 2019 with Cabrera, Hicks, Poncedeleon, Gant, Helsley, Reyes, Gomber, and Woodford ~ combined ERA of 3.66, and you didn’t have to bring up a few of them.
In 2024, we could have Liberatore, Thompson, McGreevy, Graceffo, plus the new guys, Rom, Roby, Robberse, and Kloffenstein all be available as bullpen backfill.
Once you start saying, well, McGreevy can be the 5th starter, you’ve already lost.
Once you start saying, well, McGreevy can be the 5th starter, you’ve already lost.
He got his head handed to him by AAA hitters Saturday. It took him 98 pitches to go 4.1 IP, 10H, 7 ER.
Greatest Mo quote of all time:
“…reality is I think we know what we’re doing.”
This man took St. Louis to the 2nd worst record in the NL in August. His arrogance is massive.
Monty will not cost his acquiring team a comp pick so I’d say 5/100mil, minimum.
I like a pitcher who shows up for work, so maybe I am just high on him.
Read the Bernie article about the suggestion that the wbc effected the Cardinals this start of the season. I couldn’t agree more with Bernie here. This whole thing of trying to make excuses is just embarrassing. Management failed during the off-season, that’s all that needs to be said.
Sure, it’s embarrassing…And it’s all baloney. They’d tell you water wasn’t wet if they thought it’d cover their backsides.
From J.M. Kerska on The Forkball:
Whether Mozeliak can be trusted to make the right moves is highly questionable, considering his repeated failures in free agency and his rocky trade history. Unfortunately for Cardinals fans, they will just have to cross their fingers and hope for the best.
I think that this is the general feeling of most writers on STL and Card fans. With so much negativity pointed at Mozeliak its a wonder why he is still at his position in the FO. Is there any other MLB team’s GM that can tread water with such a reputation?
When the PBO and owner are in lockstep as is the case with the Cardinals, it doesn’t matter. If DeWitt fired Mo, then he would just hire one of his underlings, who will also be in lockstep with the owner. Consider their pattern in hiring managers.
My conclusion is that nothing substantive will change while DeWitt owns the team. I am not suggesting he will or should sell, just that he sees that his model has worked well for 30 years and he won’t change it over one bad season.
While we point out how many years it has been since they won a playoff series, DeWitt points to attendance, TV ratings, winning seasons and the number of playoff appearances as validation their course is correct. He never mentions profitability (except his silly remarks during COVID), but one can easily imagine his key measure of success is financial. That is his life – making money from businesses.
P.S. Mozeliak is under contract through 2025.
My conclusion is that nothing substantive will change while DeWitt owns the team. I am not suggesting he will or should sell, just that he sees that his model has worked well for 30 years and he won’t change it over one bad season.
IMO his mess is not just one bad season. Mozeliak has put the team in a position where it will take a number of years to “fix’ his mistakes and he shouldn’t be the one trying to turn the team around considering his recent history of poor transactions.
Unfortunately I think what Brian is saying is true. While I am sure that Cardinal ownership wants to win it is obvious that their number one priority is the financial balance sheet.
In their eyes Mo has done a good job over the years of building the team just good enough to keep the fans interested while also staying under budget. That is a win win for them. The challenge for 2024 is that the fans interest is going to be diminished unless the front office steps up this winter and makes some bold moves, which will cost money.
How about changing the pitching PHILOSOPHY to BUST’EM INSIDE. The cards pitching staff gets 2 strikes and then they ALL nibble on low and away instead of up and in. DRIVE THEM OFF THE PLATE……
Here’s an all-time great Al H. quote from a Redbird TV broadcast when Al was still Dan Mclaughlin’s PBP color commentator…”The reason he’s such a great and successful pitcher is because he’s not afraid to come up and inside…I was like that!”…Haha! Say what you want about Al, but the H initial in his last name will never stand for humble…
Ny said:
IMO his mess is not just one bad season. Mozeliak has put the team in a position where it will take a number of years to “fix’ his mistakes and he shouldn’t be the one trying to turn the team around considering his recent history of poor transactions.
That opinion, which is essentially a prediction of the future, DeWitt may or may not agree with. I am guessing not.
Coming into the season, most would have guessed the 2023 Cards would be closer to a 90-win team than a 90-loss team. While there were plenty of concerns about the starting pitching, I do not recall anyone seeing this poor result coming.
The team as it is clearly has more talent than the record indicates. That fact will give them optimism that they can make moves during the off-season to right the listing ship. I get the healthy skepticism that it can be pulled off successfully, but none of us can see the future.
gscottar said:
The challenge for 2024 is that the fans interest is going to be diminished unless the front office steps up this winter and makes some bold moves, which will cost money.
That is absolutely the challenge. They have to find the balance point by making enough moves to become good enough on paper to win the division again but not overspend and negatively impact their financial return. The obvious path is trades for relatively lower priced talent rather than spending heavily in free agency. But they tried that last winter at catcher. Plan A failed and Plan B backfired.
Cardinals fans aren’t stupid. If the team keeps dropping in relative payroll (they were 16th before the deadline and likely lower now), but DeWitt keeps insisting they are in the top 10, when it is clear they are not even close, more and more fans are going to turn off and stay away. That will especially be the case if the heavy losing does not end and the revamped 2024 team is slow out of the gate.
I think Bill charted out a 5yr ROI to make up for stl owner groups lack of returns in 2020.
I don’t expect payroll to spike back up around 10th until 2026. Fyi, this season the difference between 16th and 10th, is 35mil.
Thanks, jj. If that turns out to be the case and they don’t spend, they are going to have to be really good at making trades, since the minors pitching pipeline has no clear answers close to StL. Two more bad seasons like this one would be devastating such that many fewer may care if they wait to increase spending until 2026.
they are going to have to be really good at making trades
I take “good at” to mean getting back very good value for what is given up. But that alone is not enough. If the value of what is given up is not great enough, then being good at making trades is not going to return the quality of piching we need. There will also have to be a willingness to give up something of enough value to get what we need in return. Who has enough value is something Mo will find out this winter.
There should be 45mil of reclaimed salaries, and two DFA’s (Hudson and O’Neill), after raises for 2024 are paid.
My reply # 222092
Even if it’s 40mil, it’s already in the budget. No excuse for relying solely on trades.
Myself and many others on here have followed this team through somewhat prolonged eras of both success and failure. Those eras of success being the mid to late 60’s, the early to mid 80’s and the early 00’s to last season. Those eras of failure being the entire 70’s and the late 80’s to the time of the purchase by current ownership from the brewery. My take is a simple one. Almost immediately after those two prolonged and agonizing periods of dismal failure, the Cardinal fortunes were quickly turned around from being perennial losers to consistently competitive winners who brought home NL Pennants and WS Championships once Cardinal ownership took it upon themselves to hire an experienced field manager who had a proven record of success. Both of those field managers are now members of the baseball HOF and the primary reason they have a bust in Cooperstown is because of the success they brought as field managers of the St. Louis, Cardinals. Show me someone who knows how to challenge and motivate his ballplayers to compete and win baseball games and the Redbirds will once again become the best team in the NL.
Bill DeWitt, Jr. is a baseball man through and through. It has run in the family for over 100 years. Bill Dewitt, Sr. was involved with baseball for 60 years. He began by selling soda at the old Sportsman’s Park when he was a youngster.
If you knew Bill, Jr., you would know that he has a passion for the players. He loves to follow our minor leagues, see players develop, and watch them become successful at the major league level.
He has more money than he knows what to do with, and his delight is to put a good team on the field every single season.
I imagine he is just as disappointed in this season as the majority of the fans.
If that’s indeed the case, he can mitigate and soothe his disappointment simply by hiring a genuine Big League field manager.
bccran said:
He has more money than he knows what to do with…
I imagine that is true. So why is the Cardinals payroll 16th in MLB, having slid down in recent years from the traditional top 10 status? More importantly, will the payroll grow to catch up with the competition in 2024?
P.S. If the Cardinals were thriving with a payroll that is losing ground compared to the other teams, it would be defensible. But the relative austerity seems to have caught up with them and they are probably going to have to change their ways to get out of the spiral.
He could take on a top tier manager for around $5M less money than he pays Matz or was paying DeJong. I think Bochy and Roberts make around $6M to $7M. Worth every penny.
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