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This isn’t going to be a case to rip the front office. The Cards have almost zero chance to get Otani due to their international budget limitations. Not likely a Japanese star would take less money to come to StL.
There is only a $3M difference in what the Cards can offer him vs what the teams with the most international money can offer. Is that really that big of a gulf in the grand scheme of things? If he is as good as advertised he will get a multi million deal soon anyway. I get the impression that this guy isn’t trying to maximize the amount of money he gets right now, otherwise, he would have waited two years and be eligible for the big contract immediately.
If you mean Holliday’s big Cardinals contract, the back and forth with Boras went all the way into the first week in January. Can you imagine what would have happened if they had to settle for Jason Bay, instead?
gscottar, I believe the gap is far, far greater than $3 MM. Teams can trade for money and apparently dip into next years money, too. However, I am pretty sure the Cards are limited to $300K max per player in both this and next signing period and that did not change with the new CBA.
P.S. I read a Goold article that suggests the Cards may be able to compete, but I don’t see as much ambiguity as he does. In fairness, there has been a lot of confusion.
If I was StL, I would go back to MLB and push hard to be allowed to increase their overspend in the 2016-17 period, which is when Maitan was originally available. But based on what I have read so far, that does not seem to be part of the terms. Teams can spend ahead, but nothing is yet said about spending backward. Without that, it seems to me that the Cards cannot offer more than just $300K. Others will be in the millions.
The backward spending would seem logical and fair. However, with the Cards paying 100% tax they would basically hsve to want him twice as bad as some other teams.
Going backward would be fair (to those teams who tried and failed to get him), but is not part of what was announced – at least as of yet (as far as I know).
To your other point, I imagine every team would have to overspend their 2016-17 pool to get Maitan. Meaning everyone who wanted to go backward would be into the 100 percent penalty. But you make a good point that the “going forward” teams might get to offer a real $10 million (with no penalty on top of it).
One other thought, would MLB let all teams go backward, or just the ones who supposedly bid on Maitan before? I can see room for funny business in this case. Since the backward money will be unrestricted, what is to stop teams who weren’t in the bidding before to get in now and benefit unfairly? If they really wanted him, the going backward teams could outbid the going forward teams. These are reasons I really wonder if MLB will allow going backward.
From what I have read the Yankees and Rangers have the most to spend on Ohtani and that amount is $3.5M. The Cubs are supposedly in the mix as well and I know they are maxed out at $300k like we are.
I am curious about the current roster at Memphis as anyone can be taken in the Rule 5 minor league phase below Memphis. Where could I find current info on this?
And projecting next year, who would the Cardinals need to protect from Rule 5? I am thinking Helsley, Fernandez, Woodford, and Hicks, possibly?
C27, each organization submits special rosters for Rule 5. They are not generally made public, so we do not know for sure in which phase some of the players are eligible – except the ones chosen on draft day, of course!
So, by this, the Cardinals would at least have a chance…
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/21556666/shohei-ohtani-sends-mlb-teams-memo-asking-how-plan-use-himThey could always say they will use him as the first pinch hitter of the game, he can hit while he is in the game, and he can serve as DH in American league games…that would give him about 300 AB’s per year.
Problem is, STL doesn’t really have a Japanese population (at least not compared to West Coast), the marketing opportunity is MUCH smaller that NYC, LA, BOS and they can only give him $300k bonus.
I am guessing teams cannot expressly say they will sign him to a major league contract as soon as he makes the major league roster…
If I were the Cardinals, I would build out a plan like this:
1. If Ohtani comes to the Cardinals, he would become our #1 SP
2. STL consistently draws 3M+ per season, and has a loyal fan base for over 200 miles. Baseball is by far the biggest sport in town.
3. Build a marketing plan to market Ohtani in the US – engage some of the ad agencies in STL to create funny commercial concepts to market Ohtani to the US and rack up his endorsements
4. Show what the Cardinals did with Oh and his translator
5. Go after the Japanese reliever the Cardinals were interested in
6. Make a play for Yu Darvish to be the #2 – this would allow the Cardinals to include Flaherty in a trade for….
7. Show him how aggressively the Cardinals are going to go after Stanton (with Otahni on board, willing to trade Piscotty + Flaherty + O’Neill for Stanton)
8. Goal is multiple championships over next 3-4 years…Starting Rotation now looks like:
1. Ohtani
2. Darvish
3. CMart
4. Reyes (when Returns)/Wainwright
5. WeaverWacha becomes middle reliever pitching once per week (just like a regular) going 3-5 innings at a time to save the bullpen (since he is spectacular his first time through the order). Wainwright becomes reliever when Reyes returns.
Mo & Girsch would have to practice their winking skills when in negotiations to talk about how they will buy out his pre-arb and arb years without actually saying they are going to do it…When Wainwright’s salary falls off the books, they have room to increase Ohtani’s.
Very interesting package deal idea. I wonder if the two know one another well. They both played for the Nippon-Ham Fighters, but Darvish left the year before Otani signed. Darvish is much older (31). I checked their agents, but Darvish is with Wasserman and Otani is represented by CAA.
Ohtani was actually given Darvish’s number (I believe it was #11) after Darvish left…
Yes, I think the idea of the Cardinals having three Japanese players on the team at once would appeal to him, since he is asking about assimilation. Perhaps even bring back Oh since he spent time in Japan as well.
At the same time, the Cardinals could pitch Stanton to waive his no-trade and persuade Darvish to sign here with the same plan.
The marketing in Japan of the Cardinals with three Japanese players on the team chasing the WS would be through the roof
I would have the people from AB-InBev in the room as I was talking about marketing opportunities…Stands to figure they could benefit from the boost in Japan if all goes according to plan and the Cardinals have three Japanese players help them to a WS…
Cardinals2016: Well those are very clever plans you have and I would like to see them happen. They will NOT and the reason is in the first three words of the last paragraph of your post outlining the moves…Mo & Girsch.
Well Nate, I tend to agree with you, because this would be rather bold. But maybe Brian and bccran can twist a few arms in the Cardinals organization and show them how we can pick up a new fanbase on the other side of the Ocean….It would more than pay for itself!!!
I’ll take the whole exercise a little further:
If the Cardinals can convince Ohtani, Stanton and Darvish to buy into the plan:
1. Wacha and Reyes will piggy back on each other to preserve both of their arms (not sure who starts or if they alternate)
2. Lyons will piggyback on Ohtani’s starts (NY media is reporting Yankees might go to a 6 man rotation to preserve arms, I think the Cardinals should stack starters on top of starters and develop a super pen to preserve the rotation AND the pen)
3. It was rumored that the Giants offered to trade Joe Panik for Dee Gordon to secure Stanton’s services. Panik is projected to make $3.8 million, Wong $4 million. I would be willing to trade Wong for Gordon. Not sure this is necessary if the Cardinals do #4….
4. Cardinals are rumored to have interest in Brad Zeigler as part of the Stanton deal. Honestly, this doesn’t make sense – whether it is his 4.78 ERA or $9 million salary. The only way it makes sense is if they get a cost-controlled reliever back. So, I’d ask for either Barraclough, Steckenrider or Wittgren back to take on $5 million of Zeigler’s salary, then promptly cut Zeigler.
5. Sign Zack Cozart as a SS if I can get him for 3 years, $42 million or less (with him deciding it might be worth taking less than he could command to win championships). DeJong then becomes super utility IF playing 2B, SS, 3B.
6. IF the Cardinals really wanted to go for it, offer Grichuk, Bader, Hudson & Aledmys Diaz for Marcell Ozuna. Diaz gives them IF they need, they probably trade Grichuk. Hudson gives them another MLB ready arm. Though this would not be necessary, it may be used to help convince Stanton if shown as a contingency upon him saying yes…Cardinals bullpen is pretty much set with internal guys, the Japanese reliever and whomever we get back from Miami as part of taking on Zeigler’s salary…May need another lefty, but with Lyons, Sheriff, Cecil & Gomber, should be okay.
Now, taking on Cozart, Zeigler & Ozuna would push the Cardinals up against the luxury tax, but the international marketing in Japan + increased attendance/TV ad revenue/merchandise sales would more than offset however much that exceeds the Cardinals “comfort level”.
…And we’d have a super team.
Without Darvish and the Japanese relief pitcher, the Cardinals probably have ZERO chance at enticing Ohtani.
He is specifically asking how teams are going to help him assimilate. Having Darvish, who has been in the US for years, and whom he succeeded in Japan, could help that transition.
With each of the players, you are trying to get them to buy into the vision.
With Darvish, you are trying to get him to sign for less than 5/125…
With Ohtani, you are trying to show him how you are going to help him win World Series championships, see the US, assimilate, have fun, and increase his star power in the US and Japan…
With Stanton, you are trying to get him to waive his NTC…
With Cozart, you are trying to get him to take less than market value (say 3/30 instead of 3/42)…
With the Marlins, you are trying to get them to give you first shot at Stanton, Ozuna and a quality, cost-controlled reliever….Heyward chose the Cubs over the Cardinals because the Cubs sold him on a VISION to win championships. The Cardinals offered money.
Ohtani is clearly looking for a VISION.
I mean, here’s what the Yankees are selling:
– Most storied team in baseball
– Most championships
– #1 farm system in baseball
– #1 media market (endorsements)
– Cosmopolitan city
– 91 wins last year
– DH position that is also openHere’s what the Cardinals are currently selling
– Second most championships
– Top 10 farm system
– Top 20 media market
– City not known for being very cosmopolitan
– 83 wins last yearThat’s why the Yankees are the runaway favorites to land Ohtani
C2016, I am honored by your opinion of my pull, but unfortunately, it is not what you hope.
Whether or not I agree with the package deal, I think the timing could be a problem. Otani will be on a shorter time table than Darvish would have to be. Once the agreement is ratified by owners and posting fees are paid, probably this coming week, Otani has only 21 days to make his choice. Darvish’s agent may not be in that big of a hurry and of course, he isn’t going to care about Otani’s decision process. Just thinking about this practically…
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