Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors – 2019-2020

[jj-cf-stl]

I’m not trying to be a boo-bird on Jagers idea, I know how hard it is to just come close on lining up players.

Haniger might be done. I don’t believe even SEA knows what to expect. A herniated disk surgery is serious stuff when swinging a golf club or bat. And hey, he might be fine too, but it’s that risk that causes clubs to wait and see proof one way or the other.

The risk is we could be giving Gant away, and he’s been valuable as a Cardinal. As far as the roster implications, I agree with trading from depth, but taking a medical flier on Haniger could also be worse than what we received from the OF this season. I’d pass at this time.

[gscottar]

To be honest I don’t think there is anyone on Seattle’s roster that I would want, at least not position players.

[Brian Walton]

It takes two to tango, and Francisco Lindor is dancing with somebody else. The Fast Lane discussed why trading for Lindor isn't as easy as it may seem.

FULL PODCAST: https://t.co/OFO4Dhedmf pic.twitter.com/nsKnkI4Q7w

— 101 ESPN St. Louis (@101espn) October 20, 2020

[mudville]

If Lindor really wants to play for a big market team, that’s his business. We certainly don’t want a player here who doesn’t particularly want to play for the Cardinals organization and it’s fan base. That leaves us with Arenado who does want to play here, or we continue to build from within.

[stlcard25]

Mud, there’s still Baez, Correa, Seager and Story hitting the market next year. Unless they all return to their same teams, there will be some options out there. I might like Seager more than Lindor, actually.

[forsch31]

Blockbuster of the day: Jack Flaherty for Fernando Tatis, Jr. Who says no first? Would you do it?

[GameCard]

Somebody in the Cardinals front office needs to be fired for the Ozuna and Arozarena fiasco.

[stlcard25]

The Cards would probably not be able to get Tatis Jr for Flaherty alone, so the Padres would likely say no first. Maybe for Dejong and Flaherty. I’d probably say no then. There’s some risk involved with Tatis Jr’s K rate.

[gscottar]

I don’t think the Pads would have any interest whatsoever in trading Tatis unless it was an extreme lopsided deal in their favor. He is going to sell them a lot of tickets once fans are allowed back.

[bicyclemike]

I would be all over a Tatis/Flaherty deal from the Cardinals side. But as 25 and gscottar mentioned, St. Louis would need to sweeten the pot some to make it happen.

[thejager]

Id be all over the Flaherty Tatis swap, and i like Flaherty a lot.

What about adding DeJong and asking for something else back?

Maybe Jorge Mateo and Austin Nola?

DeJong and Flaherty
for
Tatis, Nola, Mateo

BUT…come on…it’s me here…i can’t just stop….

THEN:

Knizner + Thomas + Carp + Montero
for
Arenado and his full contract (as long as he waives his opt out)

THEN:
ONeill + Gorman + Oviedo (probably light….might have to include a young pitcher)
for
Merrifield + Soler + Keller

THEN:
re-sign Yadi and Waino

THEN:
CMart + Seijas
for
Benintendi

———-
INF
Arenado (3b), Tatis (SS), Merrifield (2b), Goldy (1b), Yadi (c)
OF
Carlson(LF), Benintendi (CF) , Soler (RF)
BENCH
Edman (SS/2b/3b/COF), Fowler (OF), Nola (1b/2b/C), Mateo (2b/SS/OF), Bader (CF)

ROTATION
Keller, Mikolas, Kim, Gomber, Waino…….Ponce, Libertore, Woodford, Thompson
Hicks, Gallegos, Miller, Webb, Reyes, Helsley, Genesis, Brebbia….Whitley, Elledge, Ponce, etc.

VIDEO GAME! LOTS of moving parts but go do it! 🙂

But if you want to change the team, then CHANGE IT! both feet in

To me: Keller is nice cost controlled young pitcher, Tatis is a star and young, Arenado is a beast, Nola is a quality backup and super utility catcher to bridge to Herrera, Benintendi still has upside, Soler is only one year but his bat is his bat, Merrifield is pure leadoff and spark and cheap

I’d like to find someone to dump the last year of Fowler’s contract on, even if we got nothing back, that would make me feel better about the payroll implications

[Nathan Leopold Jr.]

Jager:

I guess you’re dreaming but interesting.

Junior doesn’t do those kind of things.

Most importantly, nothing will be done at all until the fans are allowed to come back.

Once fans are allowed in and they can sell 3.4, Junior/Mo will add one fair to good piece and declare all the problems solved.

It’s a culture of mediocrity in the Cardinals Front Office.

[Brian Walton]

nate, you may be right, but on this thread, dreaming is ok.

The last dream was the best for me. If someone could actually sell another team to take Fowler’s entire contract – well, that would be something! Then, they could get that person working on Carpenter next!

[thejager]

agreed Brian… it might be the craziest of my ideas!! Still, he wasn’t “horrible” last year. Maybe we could eat half and still not ask for anything back.

payroll-wise it might not be as bad (even with Fowler)

big ticket guys: (approx.)
Arenado-35
Goldy-22
Mikolas-17
Fowler-16.5
Yadi-10mil?
Miller-12
Soler-8
Keller-3
Merrifield-7
Benintendi-7
Kim-4
Waino- 5= incentives?

TOTAL= 146.5 million

before lower price players

Still, even if this isn’t the perfect idea, there COULD be ways to keep the payroll relatively low while doing a major overhaul, and NOT giving up all our prospects IMO

but to be honest i’d trade some prospect futures for Superstar presents and futures

Is Gorman going to be better than Arenado for the next 5 years?
Is whatever combination of young pitching going to be better than Keller?
Is DeJong going to outperform Tatis?
Is Nola + Hererra future better than Knizner?
Is 3 years of Merrfield better than 3 years of whatever we throw out there in that spot?

Trading prospects for short term fixes is not my thing in general

but Arenado, Tatis, Keller, Merrifield
are all longer term solutions, solutions that even if they require prospects, it gives us time to draft MORE prospects and make them viable

A lineup of:
Merrifield, Carlson, Tatis, Arenado, Goldy, Soler, Benintendi, Yadi… is pretty impressive

even take out the Benintendi deal, and take off Soler…replace them with Fowler and Bader and whomever and it still pretty great

Losing Flaherty and DeJong would be big…but Tatis is one of the players

Thing is I am not sure SD would want Flaherty….they have several very impressive young pitchers coming and compared to what Tatis offers I am a not even sure DeJong + FLaherty woudl be enough…but i’d add on if need be..Tatis is that kind of talent…and at his price for the next 3 yrs (even with an extension at some point) he is worth it…

[thejager]

i want to come back to the Rockies as a target for Arenado

Now, with Arenado’s injury and his big salary and COVID 2021, and his opt out he probably won’t take in this climate, I’d have to imagine the Rockies would be VERY excited to listen to offers. Even to the point of maybe NOT requiring Gorman, Carlson or Libertore (or Herrera)

now…everyone wants to drop payroll it seems (Hand is available as a claim right now folks)…and so do the Cardinals…and the Rockies…but how can you take on Arenado and drop payroll?

Well, to me the Rockies are on the hook for Arenado no matter what…they are staring at that 35million a year paycheck unless he opts out, but other than pre COVID Betts contract i am not sure ANYONE is getting a payday in the next year even into next offseason. Still, any move for Arenado woudl probably come down to talking very frankly with Arenado about it and if at all possible waiving that option for him, i don’t think he could get more for longer anyways, plus he wont be that old when it runs out so he may have another short contract for less to get instead of opting out for a less yealy payday for a few more years being tacked on, it’s a very expensive gamble for him. 35million is still BIG time money for any player looking for a mega payday.

Anyways, back to the trade idea. Well the Rockies are on the hook, long term. And while i doubt they want to being paying for him to play elsewhere they MAY be willing to take on short term money in hopes for long term flex. But they can’t just give him away either and take on worthless properties.

Enter the Cardinals, now I know this is tough to consider but I think they may have interest in Carpenter (short term), i know the ABs triggering an option thing is there, it isnt perfect. BUT Carp still does have power, and while it is waning in StL and in most parks, that extra bit of power players get by going to the Rockies could just turn some of those flyball outs Carp continues to hit into HR’s. Carp at 1b for one year in Colorado may have some value. At least enough of an argument that it isnt laughed at I think.

Now also enter Carlos Martinez, he screams of a change of venue to me and he is not so far removed from being very good. He has control at a lower amount, and I think the Rockies are looking for any new idea for pitching in COL, he still coudl be very good and yet he could also be cut loose pretty quick.

I bring them up because, together their contracts basically equate to 1yr of Arenado. So YES the Rockies woudln’t be “saving” much money but they woudl be out from ARenado AFTER COVID 2021, that does have value i think.

Now, because that really is not ENOUGH of a good deal to get Arenado as both Carp and CMart have been wretched if you dont want to look at upside and change of venue potential. The Cardinals can still add to the deal and not sacrifice the farm.

Enter Knizner and Oviedo, both are basically MLB ready or close, and both have the markings of solid to good contributors.

Knizner hands the Rockies their starting catcher as they seem to have a black hole at catcher as Wolters has never panned out other than defensively. Even platooning the two of them (Wolters and Knizner) is a decent look with one being more offensive minded and the other more defensive) For the Cards Knizner moving provides Hererra clearer path to MLB as well as providing more justification for a 2yr Yadi contract as well as finding another backup catcher on the market (Zunino’s option was declined…all power but BIG power) to bridge to Herrera.

Oviedo showed flashes and his body showed development, yes he needs more refinement but it was obvious he was rushed. The Cardinals have several young pitchers with good upside and Oviedo is one, BUT he is a young guy that would be replaceable in the Cardinals farm with what is coming. Losing CMart isn’t as big a deal for the Cards as they have been without him for a while. Oviedo for the Rockies is a nice pitcher to have IMO as he woudl be for any team

Anyways, so the whole deal is the following:

Carp, CMart, Knizner, Oviedo
for
Arenado

at first glance it seems we are overpaying, and all the Arenado and Rockies inflated states believers would probably jump in with that. To me, I see a way for the Cardinals to AFFORD the upgrade they need. However it could be argued it is underpaying, but i think there is wiggle room there for not including premiere prospects to still get it done.

I do believe this is not a straight “dump” of Carp and CMart, and I think the Rockies could see their value, as well as Knizner and Oviedo combiend with the savings from not paying Arenado for many years as being worth it.

For the Cardinals it provides the Rock to make Goldy, and IMO Carlson and DeJong better

It does not solve leadoff…BUT if we can acquire the middle of the order bat without adding payroll next year and without losing “major” prospects, that seems worth it, while saving those prospects for solving leadoff.

….which would lead me to a KC pairing… to acquire Merrifield (and as i am greedy, perhaps Brad Keller to bolster the rotation) for more premiere prospects (just to end this, as i might go into more detail later)…i was thinking (Gorman, Edman, ONeill, Ponce, Seijas for Keller and Merrifield)

to produce this team for 2021:

L-Merrifield (2b), Carlson, Goldy, Arenado, DeJong, Fowler, Yadi, Bader (no DH)
B-FA C (Zunino), Thomas, Sosa/Schrock, Williams/cheap FA OF, Ravelo/cheap FA CI
R-Jack, Keller, Mik, Kim, Waino…..Gomber, Libertore, Woodford
P-Hicks, Gallegos, Gant, Miller, Webb, Cabrera, Helsley, Reyes

I like that team, and i like what it looks like going forward….and still keeps us with some nice prospects, Libertore, Thompson, Herrera, Montero, Nunez, Thorres, and all the new ones. Gorman is a loss, but the investment in Arenado makes it fine outside of having him as a cheap DH option shoudl that become permanent or added to the NL.

now it may seem video game or crazy…but in reality is 2 highly involved trades, a couple of veteran FA signings (Waino and Yadi) which should be easy, as well as potentially finding a few bargain FA bench players. This isn’t to distract from how tough those big trades would be to make happen, but let’s not act like it is 10 trades, it is TWO…and i’d like to think Moz still has the chops for that.

[Nathan Leopold Jr.]

Jager:

Interesting post as always. Your ideas are intriguing.

That being said, however, I think there is something that you either do not understand or have chosen to ignore. Mo doesn’t decide ANYTHING. Mo doesn’t make trades or sign free agents without getting Junior’s permission. Mo doesn’t release players or decline options…Junior does that. The negative comments I read about Mo after his press conference were comical. Those people acted as if Mo was the problem. Mo is just an errand boy for Junior. All GM’s are to an extent. Mo is a PR man for Junior to try and put a positive spin on things. It’s not whether Mo has the “chops” as you say but whether Junior does. Firing Mo is not an answer. The next guy would do the same things because Junior would still be there. Any criticism of the Cardinals this winter for doing nothing, and it looks like that’s roughly what will happen, should be aimed at Junior and not Mo.

[mudville]

I disagree, at least partially, that WDW2 makes the final decision on spending money. What I’m basing that on is pure speculation, and nothing more. Brian Walton has mentioned a few times that WDW2 was the one pushing for the signing of Stanton back in 2018. To me, that sounds completely out of character for WDW2 to be pushing for that kind of expenditure. WDW2 is a ‘low hanging fruit’ kind of guy. He’s a guy that is ‘allergic to auctions’, and a guy that wouldn’t put up the required dollars for Albert Pujols and just about every other high-priced free agent that the Cardinals have pursued. There are several other billionaires that have a stake in the St. Louis Cardinals. I’m surmising that some of them had been pushing for the signing of Stanton, and WDW2 was more or less acting as their front man. Just my opinion.

[Brian Walton]

Interesting idea. No one knows how the dynamics among the ownership group work. Have never heard of even a whiff of discontent about that, but that isn’t a circle that interacts with the media.

DeWitt is the managing partner, so he has some autonomy, but I can see when taking on a quarter of a billion dollar commitment in one bite that everyone should be bought in. (It should also be noted that Stanton was not an auction.) I think I read somewhere that the DeWitts together are the single biggest stockholder but do not have 51%. But I am going from memory on that.

DeWitt is not your average owner. He has literally lived his entire life either running teams or being the son of an owner. He is involved – and knows what he is doing. In the call the other day, Mo said he talks with Bill daily. I have had impromptu chats with him about guys in the Gulf Coast League who he brought up!

On a personal note, I bet DeWitt has his favorite players. Maybe Giancarlo was among them – before leaving him at the altar, that is! 😉

But to Nate’s point, the PBO/GM run a highly visible department with a huge budget. The PBO reports directly to DeWitt. In any company, a department head can make day-to-day decisions, but on the big calls, he is going to clear it with his immediate boss. That is how you remain employed.

[Brian Walton]

In case anyone was curious…

The qualifying offer has been extended to: LeMahieu, Springer, Realmuto, Bauer, Stroman and Gausman

— Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) November 1, 2020

[stlcard25]

The first four make sense. The last two are a little more curious, especially Gausman. Why would he not take a 1 year deal to come back with his stats?

[Brian Walton]

Agreed. If I am Gausman, I can’t take that offer fast enough. I read somewhere the Giants want to sign him to a long-term deal.

[thejager]

While i do agree that Moz bears the brunt of the frustration and Jr DOEs deserve some, I do believe that when given the freedom to do things Moz does have the chops.

My point of my trade’s i proposed was specific but what it boiled down to was, fixing issues with proper solutions while keeping the payroll the same (or close) and NOT sacrificing the entire farm.

basically:
Arenado acquisition for pieces not including Gorman, Herrera, Libertore, Carlson and offloading only short term investment on the COL side (Carp and CMart) to balance the payroll
then
Merrifield for Gorman (who would be an acceptable loss with Arenado on board)

It isn’t perfect, but I believe it IS possible to be aggressive with key acquisitions while still acknowledging the payroll and budgetary concerns. It means taking some chances and maybe dipping a bit more into the farm to make a deal go down, but it can be done.

That Moz interview looked like it was doom and gloom as if they were giving up on making any substantial acquisitions or moves and we should all be accepting of that. When that just is not the case.

If Carp and Carlos are unwanted by the ROX, sure it gets difficult, but even then you could still add on more enticing prospects to sweeten the deal. But i don’t think we should undervalue the 35million paycheck staring the ROX in the face for the foreseeable future. Just like the Marlins did. I think we see the holes of CMart and Carp as beeing so bottomless that there could provide no possibility of them being useful to anyone else. When even in their current form, their limited future makes them a potential cost cutting measure.

I don’t know

This thread is about thinking out loud and not dealing with everything, but it doesn’t mean the ideas are preposterous or not based in reality. I am not a GM. I know i dont know everything nor do i expect exactly what i think to happen.

I just refuse to believe nothign can be done and to accept that. Arenado, Merrifield whiel keeping the budget down can happen. And I think Moz could do it.

If you go to Junior saying we want to add 40million of Merrifield and Arenado…that’s anon starter, btu if you go with a plan that has some possibility and not with your tail between your legs I think Dewitt would listen.

But that may in the end be the problem, I think Moz is smart enough to do these types of things, but with some of his recent disappointing decisions he has become gun-shy and more worried about his ego and future than he is about problem solving to the degree that needs to be done.

[stlcard25]

On Whit…late bloomers decline early. It’s what is burning us with Carp right now, and it’s very likely what we are already seeing with Merrifield. His OBP has steadily dropped 20 points each of the last two years and that doesn’t project well going forward. Trading Gorman for him would be a big mistake, even if we did have Arenado.

[gscottar]

Declining the option on Wong and trading for Arenado in the same offseason? That would be an about face of epic proportions.

I admire your never say die attitude though jager.

[Brian Walton]

I bet the Rockies are really wishing they had unloaded Arenado’s contract last winter when there was a market.

[Author]

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