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Goold suggested this a couple days ago regarding Carpenter:
Oct 14 2019 11:25 AM
Third base is in play for an addition from outside the organization. That much is clear. If they don’t find that person, then they’ll turn to Carpenter again at 3B. There is a good debate going in the press box whether Carpenter could be the LF for the team in 2020 if Ozuna walks. I am one who thinks that’s part of the conversation. They’re going to give Carpenter the chance to have a bounce-back season. They’ve invested in him. He’s invested in that. And they gave it to Fowler.Derrick Goold
I could see them doing that and allowing Carlson to take over if any of the other outfielders falter by May.
If you pencil Carpenter in LF, Bader in CF, and Fowler in RF to ‘start’ the year with O’Neill, Arozarena, Thomas, and Martinez as your backups/fill-ins/potential replacements, I think we would be alright in the outfield.
My hope is that we move to resign Wainwright and use our FA dollars on a guy like Wood or Hamels (LH). This gives us Flaherty, Hudson, Mikolas, Wainwright, and “LH FA” as a primary rotation and they build Martinez back up as the sixth starter.
That would keep guys like Gant, Poncedeleon, and Helsley primarily as bullpen options.
Hopefully, by 2021, Genesis Cabrera would be ready to fill the LH starter spot and Carlson would take full-time reigns in the outfield.
Pads, say it aint so!!! Carp, Bader and Fowler as the starting 3 OF’s? That would likely end up being the worst BA and highest strikeout total from an OF in 140 years of baseball, and I don’t mean just the Cardinals.
Oneill, Arozarena and Thomas would at least give them a little hope of contributing at the plate.
Carp in the outfield is a terrible idea. It’ll make putting Matt Adams out there look smart. They tried it early in his career and it was a bad fit. And that was back when he was faster, quicker, and had less launch angle on his throws when he lobbed his moon shots. Plus his natural defensive instincts seem low to me, and that’s in positions where he’s had a lot of innings.
Good luck getting a good free agent pitcher if this gains traction. Even the remote possibility of an occasional OF lineup of Carp, Fowler, JMart would cause most pitchers’ heads to spin.
This is clearly a case of a terrible decision (Carp extension) leading to subsequent bad ideas.
Adonis Garcia improved on his SO rate after his buddy, Arozarena, got called up. He’s got power and the arm for corner outfield. I’ll make him my early pick To impress in spring training.
Extending Carpenter was only a bad idea because Carpenter stopped trying after he got the contract he wanted.
mudville, you’re not the only person I’ve heard say that — stopped trying. I’m interested in why you say that. I look at Carp as a guy who’s just not that good any more. He’s been in massive decline for 14 months now. I always thought he was a grinder with a lot of pride. That’s why I cringed in Game 4 against Atl when the crowd gave him a sarcastically loud booing when he fielded Swanson’s foul ball in the 8th. And I’m a guy who was not a fan of Carp in the lineup most of this year.
I do believe the psychological aspects of sports are vastly underrated and often not acknowledged like they should be. That’s probably because intangibles are not well understood and hard to prove. So I do believe the contract could have an impact, but don’t perceive the stopped trying part. Admittedly, I only know what I read and see on TV.
Regardless of your feelings for the player or the contract, we aren’t going to change the fact that Carpenter will be given every chance to prove himself in spring training and most of April. There’s really no point in arguing that unfortunately.
By May of 2020, the front office/manager may start trying other options, but the point remains, where would Carpenter hurt us least, at 3B or LF, and I believe LF. Upgrading from Carpenter to Edman at 3B is a big improvement over the difference from Ozuna (who is pretty awful defensively imo) to Carpenter.
Euro Dandy
This is clearly a case of a terrible decision (Carp extension) leading to subsequent bad ideas.
It might be the worst decision this FO has made.
Just logistically, it was bad because they just signed Goldschmidt to an extension two weeks prior and if Carpenter was going to age gracefully anywhere, 1B would be the place, not 3B.
Secondly, he was already under contract for 2019 AND had an $18.5M option for 2020. At the end of 2020, they could QO him for 2021 at about the same price point as the extension. So the only benefit for the Cardinals from the deal (w/o hindsight mind you) is getting the 2022 vesting option at market rate, assuming Carpenter continued putting up 2018 numbers, which he, of course, failed to do.
At times, Carp’s had decent numbers at 3B. The same can’t be said for OF. If we learned anything this year, Edman plays multiple positions. Keeping both Carp and Edman in the lineup doesn’t mean Edman has to be at 3B. Edman played the super utility role quite well and may continue providing that flexibility next year. Just because Ozuna is awful in the OF doesn’t mean the Cards should replace him with another awful defender, if in fact Ozuna leaves. It’s a loser’s approach.
Regardless of your feelings for the player or the contract, we aren’t going to change the fact that Carpenter will be given every chance to prove himself in spring training and most of April. There’s really no point in arguing that unfortunately.
As it should be. How many players have rebounded from bad years to be quite productive in recent years? Is Carpenter that guy? Maybe, maybe not…but he was an MVP candidate just one year ago. I’d bet injuries played a part this year and that he’ll be improved in 2020.
<By May of 2020, the front office/manager may start trying other options, but the point remains, where would Carpenter hurt us least, at 3B or LF, and I believe LF. >
The bench. Or maybe do a Cecil with him – get him an injury that lasts all season and insurance helps pay his salary.
If the Cardinals were to choose where they would have a poor fielder, I would hope it would be LF over 3B. IMO, 3B is a more critical defensive position.
In a perfect world, the Cardinals would get rid of Carpenter, Fowler, JMart and all their salaries and allow Wacha and Ozuna to walk with a draft pick for Ozuna. Then, Arozarena continues his AAA performance in the majors and Thomas continues his recent hitting for the Cardinals. Also, Bader rebounds to respectable hitting marks. As the last piece, they sign Cole and maybe trade for Edwin Diaz.
<ED wrote: Keeping both Carp and Edman in the lineup doesn’t mean Edman has to be at 3B.>
Edman plays 3b, SS, 2B and OF. He is an excellent defender and has a rifle for an arm. Both of these are excellent traits of a 3B player or any of the other positions but DeJong is an excellent defensive SS and Wong is not replaceable at 2B. Why put Carp at a position where he is not best fit? His defensive shortcomings and rubber arm are negatives and his bat has been too sporadic to be considered effective or reliable. If we want an effective pinch hitter, use Ravelo (Arozarena has not yet done much impressive). But Ravelo needs to expand his positions in order to stay at the major league level.
How much would the Cards have to eat to move Carpenter and Fowler? Fowler would have to waive his no-trade clause but there are surely a few places he’d agree to move to if he felt he wasn’t going to be starting.
Carp is owed 18.5 in 20 and 21 and Fowler is owed 16.5 in 20 and 21.
The Cards wouldn’t get anything back, but if they ate 8.5M on Carp and 6.5M on Fowler, I would think another team would take a chance at basically a 2/20 deal on them? That would free up 20M for multiple pieces or a major piece that will actually be an upgrade.
In a perfect world, the Cardinals would get rid of Carpenter, Fowler, JMart and all their salaries
In a perfect world that might happen but in this one it surely won’t. Anyway, back to reality.
You probably have to eat half of MCarp’s contract. Look at it this way: If he was owed $30M instead of $39M, wouldn’t you still think that’s a horrible deal for us? Conversely, paying $19M to play for someone else looks better in terms of roster construction than having him on the team next year. I know they’ll give him another 200 at bats before even thinking about removing him from the starting lineup next year, but still…they created this mess with such an unnecessary extension.
ONeill + Gorman + Ponce + Herrera/Thorres to Detroit for Manning + Boyd
JMart + Bader + Reyes + Montero to KC for Merrifield
Carp + half money to LAA for prospect
Fowler + half money to SF for prospect
Wong to Boston for prospectsign Rendon
sign Miley or best lefty SP for decent price
inquire on PomeranzWaino retires
OZuna QO and gone
Leone DFA
Gant arbJack, Mik, Hud, Boyd, Miley……Manning, Gomb, Woodford
CMart, Miller, Gallegos, Helsley, Miller, Webb, Genesis, Gant….Hicks
Whit, Edman, Rendon, Goldy, DeJong, Yadi, Thomas, Randy
Knizner/cheap vet catcher,Munoz, AdGarcia/vet cheap OF, Ravelo/Evan, Sosa ….Carlson,Williams,Schrocki like that team..and while giving up big pieces of the future would be necessary as well as major financial backing…it would be a very good team that would get better defensively and still have great speed…while adding in very good players that do things this years team couldn’t do…high average and put the ball in play…two major contributors to the offense like Rendon and Whit while also shipping away the more streaky players (even at a loss) still brings us forward in a major way…bullpen is good already, bench is a bit weak, but would allow for Memphis to shuttle more players…the corner OFers are RAW but would get a chance to figure it out while not being depended on offensively…while the dearth of young OFers still coming could compensate if they fail
the two big trades i propose are probably not right, but i think we have the internal parts to make them work without losing the base of the team i put together….not dealing Carlson and Knizner is about all i woudl not put on the table from the farm…Jack and Hudson too…Edman at this point is probably a no go if you move Wong and Carp…
Euro Dandy – Truly talented players don’t lose as much as Carpenter did in one offseason. There has to be a reason for it. Bottom line is that he got his money and then his stats dropped like a rock.
Lol why would you give Wong away for a prospect? Best 2b defensively out there and has turned into a dang good hitter….that just makes ZERO sense at all!
Lol why would you give Wong away for a prospect? Best 2b defensively out there and has turned into a dang good hitter….that just makes ZERO sense at all!
The only reason his name came up is because we were trying to figure out a way to clear some payroll to make bigger acquisitions. He is one of the few position players we have that has a movable contract and would have some value, plus we have a pretty good replacement at 2B if need be in Edman.
Wong has turned into a very good player but for those who want to go after the big fish will have to clear the payroll space somewhere. This is why being a GM isn’t easy and why giving out bad contract extensions ties your hands.
yep that was basically my reasoning GScott
I like Wong a lot, but his value is super high right now, but his contract is too, i love his defense and i love his offense uptick
BUT
the upgrade of Rendon over Edman or Carp is much more massive
than
the downgrade of Wong to Edman…especially if you factor in the return of probably a decent prospectIf you ask most people who they would prefer:
Edman + Rendon
or
Wong + Edmanit’s not much of conversation
and while it is true that perhaps you could find the money elsewhere so you can have Wong AND Rendon, that would severely limit our ability to bring in another player with a contract via trade OR sign a free agent
which is why in my proposal we also spend big prospect talent to acquire Merrifield, and Boyd…both cheap but still have to be accounted for, which should free up enough money to either bring back Waino again or go after a lower priced lefty SP
my proposal is a HUGE endeavour and has almost no chance of happening…but the idea is solid i think
do whatever you have to bring in Rendon and trade for MErrifield…then see if you can take advantage of the Tigers to get Boyd and a good young SP potentially by dangling Gorman as a future cornerstone of their organization whom we wouldnt need because of commitment to RendonCarp + Fowler + Wong
or
Rendon + Merrifield + Edmanalso…Boyd + Waino/Miley or Keuchel + Waino
(as a caveat…Manning + Boyd deal even with what i put in there is still pretty light I think…if we take out Manning it gets lighter, but keeping Manning in makes it tough because of his value….the way i looked at it was …Manning for Gorman + POnce…big starter potential for big hitter potential and a young cheap ready to go rotational piece…then Boyd for Oneill + Hererra/Thorres…this may be too light…probably is…maybe make it Herrera and Thorres + ONeill…basically young still high upside mshing OFer (they need young hitters remember) + a future hitting catcher and another hitting outfielder…. basically this whole trade comes down to giving the Tigers young hitting who will be in line for when their young pitching matures and Cabrera retires…while also replacing Boyd with a pitcher who can pitch right now and who coudl probably pitch later too when the youngsters are ready…They get to sell high on Boyd who ended poorly after a great start…we are taking a chance there…and Manning a top flight prospect who we are exchanging fora top flight young hitter (which they have none of IMO)
For a jager-like “spitball,” how about:
Kolten Wong, Jose Martinez and Angel Rondon to Boston for Mookie Betts (+14M)
Carlos Martinez to Minnesota for Taylor Rogers, Jordan Balasovic and Nick Gordon (-8M)
Lane Thomas and Yairo Muñoz to Arizona for Robbie Ray (+9M)
Dexter Fowler to Seattle for salary relief (-9M)
Sign Josh Donaldson 3 yrs, $69M (+23M)
Sign Waino to an incentive based deal with a base of $5M and a chance to earn $12M
All in all the team takes on a 34M increase over base (currently $154M) which would then sit around $188M. The OF logjam gets some clearing and the team is officially “all in” for 2020 at least:
2B Edman
RF Betts
1B Goldy
3B Donaldson
LF Carp/O’Neill
C Yadi
SS Dejong
CF Bader/ArozarenaBench: Knizner, O’Neill, Arozarena, Ravelo, Sosa
Flaherty
Mikolas
Ray
Hudson
WainoBullpen: Gallegos, Brebbia, Miller, Webb, Rogers, Gant, Ponce, Fernandez, Hicks (half season), Reyes/Helsley/Cabrera depending on who they want to start.
That looks like a very good team to me. But it would be about $10M past the expected salary and have a limit on cost control, which the Cards have been tentative to go for (although let’s not forget that they allegedly offered Flaherty for a one year rental of Donaldson *shudders*)
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