Outfield Dilemma …

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This topic contains 110 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by Avatar mspaid 17 hours, 23 minutes ago.

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  • #113146
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    GameCard
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    Nonsense…he started almost every game once he starting playing for St. Louis.

    #113149
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    1964cards
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    My two cents …

    – Extend one year deal to Ozuna (Qualifying Offer?) … he will reject and Cards get a draft pick. Appreciate all Ozuna has done this past season, but I see too many health risks in signing him to a long-term deal
    – Look for the 2020 version of Jeff Brantley to replace Ozuna
    – Carpenter and Ravelo are not outfielders … trying to play them in the outfield on a regular basis would be a monumental mistake
    – I doubt the Cards can move JMart and get much if any value by himself … he is essentially an AL DH/OF … also remember how the Cards obtained him …most likely he stays with the Cards as a bat off the bench and spot starter
    – I doubt the Cards can move Ravelo and get much if any value by himself … he is essentially a 1B/DH … see logic above … I do not see a role for Ravelo with the Cards in 2020 as he is limited to the positions he can play
    – Fowler looks to be on the downside of his career … 2019 may by the high point of the final three seasons of his contract if he is to play every day (2019, 2020 and 2021) … he may be better served in a platoon role or try to move him and be willing to eat salary
    – Time to find out what you have in Bader, O’Neil, Thomas, Arozerena and Garcia … keep the best two or three
    – keep Carlson in AAA at least half the season to give him playing time, work out any kinks and make sure he is ready to go every day at the ML level.

    I agree that Edman needs to play every day. My view is he should be used as a super sub to fill in at 3B, SS, 2B and corner outfield spots.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by Avatar 1964cards.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by Avatar 1964cards.
    #113152
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    1. I don’t think Ravelo is in the FO plans for LF but if he had a .300 BA and 1000 OPS like someone suggested then I would be fine if they played him in LF.
    2. IMO Spring training will determine whether Dylan Carlson is in St. Louis at the beginning of the season if not June like Tommy Edman.
    3. Do not refer to Tommy Edman as a sub…he is an everyday multi-positional player.

    #113154
    Brian Walton
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    GC, please respect the fact that others do not agree with you, as they do not consider “super sub” to be an offensive or inaccurate term. Posters here have every right to use “super sub” to describe Edman if they so choose, just as you can call him something else if you like. Thank you for your understanding.

    #113159
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    Call him what he is…sub anything is incorrect.

    #113164
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    I have to agree with GameCard here.
    Referring Tommy Edman to anything with the word “sub” in it is downright offensive. “Mega-sub”, “super-sub”, “dyno-sub”…….all naughthy words in my book.

    #113165
    Brian Walton
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    You will just have to deal with it. Lecturing other posters on what they can say or not say based on your opinion is not the way we roll here.

    #113167
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    I’ll make a deal with you GC, I will stop calling him a super-sub when he has started at least half a year at a single position. In return, just ignore what I call him, it’s just a title.

    It doesn’t matter to me how many times you say he is not a sub. In my eyes and (from what I can tell) some other posters eyes, at this time, he is a super-sub. If you learn anything about me, you will know that I will not change my belief on this if you said it in 1,000 straight posts.

    Brian, this is the last time I will address the matter directly unless provoked.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by Avatar forsch31.
    #113169
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    If Edman’s name is not listed in the upper portion of the lineup card on March 26, 2020, somebody’s head is going to explode.

    #113173
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    Did not mean to cause a firestorm. I realize now, and apologize, that I was not clear enough.

    I see a Edman starting and playing just about every day. However, not at one position. At the present, I believe he offers more value to club playing multiple positions than locking him into one slot.

    #113174
    Ratsbuddy
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    At one point Lou Gehrig was a Sub.

    Then he became a Super Sub.

    Then he became one of the all time greats.

    r/Esteemed Rat <~~~~who is NOT watching Game 7 tonight

    #113310
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    Forsch-the glass is setting in the middle.Undecided on which way to go.Skeptical on one hand-hopeful on the other.It would be great if all the kids came in and performed to expectations or better and avoided any sophomore slumps or stayed healthy but how often does that happen? Thomas might have been able to help but he got hurt,ONeill played okay when he got to start for a couple of weeks then got hurt and Shildt banished TO to waste away on the bench while playing the waste of space Fowler.Shildt had Arozareena for what a month? he sat him while playing Edman in the OF while Fowler sucked as usual.Schildts inflexibility and his refusal to use all his different options cost in the end.why have Poncedeleon on the playoffs roster? Why not another bench bat? ONeill would have been a better choice.Ravelo too.needing more than 10-11 pitchers in a short playoff series is rare.Better bench options would have helped IMO.Shildt is baffling at times..i know he is still a work in progress but IMO he simply wore Gant and Gallegos out,wasted and discarded O`Neill,Thomas and Arozarena while continuing to send Fowler out every day.

    #113314
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    I like to refer to Edman as filling the “Zobrist role”, which means he starts at least 5 games a week but at multiple positions.

    Who knew that Ben Zobrist would be referred to so often in our daily vernacular? I’m sure he isn’t the first player to play that particular role but I see a lot of MLB commentators refer to the role with his name.

    #113324
    stlcard25
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    Out of Carlson, Arozarena, Thomas, O’Neill, Bader, Williams and Garcia, one would think that the Cards should get at least a couple of useful starters. It would be odd if they didn’t and a sign that player development is struggling.

    Fwiw, I wrote them in order of my own confidence that they will reach their potential as a big league starting caliber OF…or better. Thomas and O’Neill are about the same and I think both would be about average starters, with the three below them as below average and the two above as guys I think will be above average to potential stars.

    #113325
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    gscottar
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    I agree with that order and I would even say that the first three are head and shoulders above the other four. I think there is clear separation.

    #113329
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    I don’t like the thought of having Carp, JMart and especially Fowler on the roster going into 2020. JMart they shouldn’t even have to eat any money.

    Would it be that hard to find a trade partner and eat half of Carp and Fowler? Telling the player he will be able to start on the team getting him or ride the bench here should be motivating to waive the NTC.

    #113332
    stlcard25
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    CFICT, I agree with you about Fowler and Jmart. Their positions are redundant here. With the 26th man I guess one of them might be ok as a pinch hitter.

    Carpenter on the other hand is insurance for 3B if we have an injury to Edman (who could also be ineffective), Dejong or Wong. Would you really feel comfortable with Muñoz long term there? Plus there’s the potential for a bounce back, which is not outside the realm of possibility for a guy who’s been good (much better than Fowler) for his entire career. Unless we find a replacement, the production from that spot would suffer and if we have to eat half of his deal and replace him with a comparable player like Moustakas that will cost more than half of his salary…what will we really gain?

    #113333
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    14NyquisT
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    Out of Carlson, Arozarena, Thomas, O’Neill, Bader, Williams and Garcia

    Presently that order sounds about right but at this time last year it would would’ve been different. Of the last four of those mentioned the one(s) that can cut down on their K/rate will move up. Otherwise they don’t project to the MLB level. Williams doesn’t have that much of a K problem but someone mentioned that he is not highly thought of by the FO.

    IMO Carlson’s ceiling is head and shoulders above all of them.

    #113335
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    I would like to see another healthy year from Williams. He seemed to finally be living up to his power potential at the end of last year. Also drew some walks. I would like to see him cut down on his strikeouts. I don’t think he’d fetch much in a trade.

    #113336
    Brian Walton
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    Arozarena is the hot flavor currently, but between the two of them, I still think Thomas has the better chance of becoming an everyday player.

    The immediate problem as I see it is there are too many guys to give spring at-bats to. How can they sort it out in such limited time? The good news is that they all have options, so they can move up and down to Memphis as needed. The opening day outfielders may or may not have staying power, as this could take longer to sort out (assuming the same guys are around then as now).

    #113339
    stlcard25
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    Interesting thoughts, Brian. What makes you favor Thomas over Arozarena? They seem like similar types of players, with Thomas probably having better power and Arozarena with the better contact profile. Is it because he’s a better shot to stick in CF?

    I agree as far as spring training. I suspect we will see guys on the shuttle a lot next year, especially if there are injuries or the starters in the OF flounder, which has to be a worry with any option they put out there.

    #113340
    Brian Walton
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    What you said. Thomas’ power is the tool that is his differentiator.

    #113367
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    SoonerinNC
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    Bader, Thomas, Arozarena, Carlson, O’Neill, Garcia, Williams. That is 7 guys with options remaining. I agree that there will be a lot of shuttling between St Louis and Memphis. If Ozuna doesn’t resign and we don’t trade for an outfielder all 7 should be able to get almost ever day action between the two teams.

    All 7 with good to outstanding defensive skills. O’Neill and Garcia with the most power. Also the most tendency to strikeout on low breaking pitches out of zone. Bader in that group as well. Why do they do that? I’m sure that they are aware that it is their big weakness. I’m sure the coaches keep reminding them. Do they have trouble picking up breaking pitches. Can they improve that weakness. Are they trying to hit too many long balls. They can improve that and they have enough power to hit homers while staying within themselves.

    Maybe the best news is that all but Bader and O’Neill finished the season strong.

    How ready is Carlson for the majors? Consider the following.

    Edman 63 games at AA at age 22. .645 OPS, 16 BB, 34 K’s
    Edman 109 games at AA at age 23. .753 OPS. 35 BB, 76 K’s
    Edman 17 games at AAA at age 23. .776 OPS, 8 BB, 11 K’s
    Edman 49 games at AAA at age 24. .869 OPS, 15 BB, 33 K’s

    Carlson 108 games at AA at age 20 .882 OPS, 52 BB, 98 K’s
    Carlson 18 games at AAA at age 20. 1098 OPS, 6 BB, 18 K’s

    #113372
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    I think Carlson will be ready by June if not at the start of the season.

    #113395
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    Peter Bourjos 2.0 (Bader) would be better off, for him and the Cards, going to a team that can let him get the at bats and figure out the breaking balls when a division title isn’t expected. Maybe he could be the main piece for Boyd?

    Bader and Woodford and keep O’neill for 2020?

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