November 24, 2021 at 3:36 pm #177398Nigel TParticipantPaid - Three Months
If a number one costs 25-40 million per year, then this deal looks quite reasonable for a back end starter.
Most of the top end rotation guys come with question marks. and most don’t possess stuff superior to Reyes. Hicks, or Flaherty. I will take our question marked hurler over someone else’s at the going price for number one starters.
Didn’t Max start out in relief for the D-Backs?November 24, 2021 at 4:57 pm #177402GameCardParticipantFree
He is not a back-end starter…he is a #3 in the rotation as a LH.November 24, 2021 at 5:53 pm #177406mspaidParticipantFree
What I want them to do and what they will do are certainly two different things.
1. They need to sign a SS either Story, Seager or someone of that ilk…a good one.
2. Sign Schwarber for DH
#. Sign Pederson to platoon with Bader
But Matz will likely be their last acquisition. They always stop after one deal and that person is supposed to lead them to the promised land. Hint: It never works.
It could take 180 million to win the WS and that is not going to happen. So we’ll have to be satisfied with losing the Wild Card game and listen to Mo say what a great year it was.November 24, 2021 at 7:09 pm #177408
It could take 180 million to win the WS and that is not going to happen.
Funny, Nate. Bet you didn’t know the Braves just won the World Series with a payroll of $153 MM – $18 MM less than the 2021 Cardinals – and ranked #11 in MLB!
As I and many others have used real data to point out often over the years, it isn’t how much is spent, but how it is spent.November 24, 2021 at 7:22 pm #177409
I like the Cards’ payroll position going forward. Nate isn’t wrong that they could spend some more this year, but I don’t think it’s absolutely necessary to compete in the NL Central. The question is…will competing in the NL Central be enough to put the team on better footing against a (likely not quite so good) Dodgers team, an up and coming Padres squad, the smoke and mirror Giants, or the team that comes out of the NL East race? If I had to handicap it, I’d say the Cards are probably the 3rd or 4th best team in the NL right now, with average health. Adding another starter could push them another notch higher.November 24, 2021 at 7:45 pm #1774111982 willieParticipantPaid - Annual
The braves had a lot of fortunate things go their way plus made a couple moves that worked out for them.November 24, 2021 at 8:06 pm #177413jj-cf-stlParticipantPaid - Annual
This time last offseason ATL was signing Drew Smyly to a 1yr 11mil contract.
He logged 23 GS and 126.2 IP. Every club needs their innings eaters.November 24, 2021 at 8:13 pm #177414OnyxgemParticipantFree
meh it is what it is, but the cards didn’t need another mid rotation starter they needed a top of the line starter but they settled because it as cheaper and we all know how they love being CHEAP as can be!November 24, 2021 at 10:32 pm #177418bccranParticipant
Any poster who calls the Cardinals cheap doesn’t know or care about the facts.November 24, 2021 at 11:17 pm #177419Card4EverParticipantFree
Hope it works out. Not a huge fan though. He is a #4 starter, which means the present 4/5 drop down a notch. It does nothing for 1-3, which is what they really need. When Waino retires, he moves up to #3, which he isn’t on a playoff team. I hope Mo has some further moves up his sleeve.November 25, 2021 at 1:18 am #177420mspaidParticipantFree
You can’t compare team to team on payroll. The Rays made it to the WS with a pauper’s payroll. What I meant was the place where the Cardinals are will take a very large commitment to be a legitimate WS contender. Right now they are second tier contender. The Matz deal was a good one but they can’t stop there. If it is their big move for the off-season then 2022 is already over but there is plenty of time for some more “significant” moves. I’ll be waiting and watching. Gould mentioned a possible payroll increase. Now, if it’s a mere ten million then I’m yawning but if it is thirty to forty then I’m on the edge of my seat. It’s fun to anticipate and hope. Fingers crossed.November 25, 2021 at 5:48 am #177421OnyxgemParticipantFree
Bccran you know all about not caring about factsNovember 25, 2021 at 7:08 am #177422
Thanks for clarifying Nate, but I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment if you are hoping for ownership to change its long established pattern of behavior.November 25, 2021 at 7:58 am #177425
I am a fan of the Matz signing. A good fit for our rotation. A 30 year old ground ball lefty who doesn’t walk a bunch and keeps it in the park. He should do well playing with this team in our park.
Matz (L) bb/9 2.6 hr/9 1.1
Wainwright bb/9 2.2 hr/9 0.9
Flaherty bb/9 3.0 hr/9 1.4
Hudson (2019) bb/9 4.4 hr/9 1.1
Mikolas bb/9 2.2 hr/9 1.2
I think Mo will configure the 2022 pen with the same type of guys, moving away from the radar gun types who can’t be counted on to throw strikes. He was quick to sign McFarland, bb/9 2.1 hr/9 0.7. Reyes had a bb/9 of 6.5 last year and both he and Hicks have always walked too many. I think Mo is moving away from those kind of guys.November 25, 2021 at 8:09 am #177427
I think Mo is done other than keeping his eyes open for a pen guy and depth pieces for the upper levels. A more playable reserve catcher if something comes along.November 25, 2021 at 8:24 am #177430
On the type of pitcher, it does seem that Mo is being reactive after the poor results early in 2021. Whether that’s the best call or not, we will see. The Cards certainly have been more on the end of shopping for need vs opportunity since Luhnow left.November 25, 2021 at 8:36 am #177431
Luhnow led amateur scouting and the draft plus the farm system. Huge, huge responsibilities, but on the scouting and player development side. Basically Randy Flores plus Gary LaRocque today.
Luhnow also started the analytics work for the organization, but I never got the impression he was central to MLB acquisitions.November 25, 2021 at 8:37 am #17743214NyquisTParticipant
I really like the Matz acquisition and not just for rotation depth. He has a chance to become a mainstay if he can hold his own.November 25, 2021 at 8:46 am #177433
You are probably right, Brian. But somewhere along the line the Cards went from cutting edge to very boring when it came to the way they approached the market. Maybe it was just bad luck, I don’t know. I didn’t follow the off-season as closely back in the day, but it seemed like they made better moves in the 2008-14 era than since. Maybe it’s just bad luck. They still do well overseas. The farm is not as strong, so maybe they have needed to shop for need vs opportunity lately.November 25, 2021 at 10:19 am #177436
Another thing we should keep in mind is that the traditional way starters and pen guys are used is evolving. The player development side and Mo might be trying to move accordingly. Assuming a somewhat normal 2022 season, we will have to see how Marmol and the reconfigured coaching staff manages the pitching. Maybe Schildt wasn’t on board enough with that.November 25, 2021 at 10:54 am #177438bicyclemikeModeratorPaid - Annual
I like this signing. Matz pitching in our park half the time (unless they move the fences in), and with our defense should be a good value. Also takes the pressure off of Liberatore, who can get more time in AAA if he does not light up the coaches eyes in the Spring.
I am not a fan of bringing in Schwarber or Story/Seager, and definitely not Perderson. I think you give those ABs to Gorman, Yepez, Nooty, and Sosa and perhaps a dark horse candidate and see where it goes. Quite a lot of potential upside there.
I will qualify that by saying Schwarber on a one or two year deal to fill in as DH would be okay. Just don’t get into anything long term with a lot of dollars committed.
Not too concerned on a number that the salary budget has to be – but rather be wise as to your obligations today and over the next 3 to 5 years. There is already quite a lot going to guys who will see declining production, so adding to that burden will add risk to the club’s ability to maneuver the roster in the coming years.November 25, 2021 at 11:47 am #177440
I guess the Mets answer to us signing Matz is them signing Plummer.November 25, 2021 at 4:59 pm #177444gscottarParticipantPaid - Annual
I guess we have a rotation full of mediocre pitchers, two of whom will make significantly more than Matz will next year.
Well in some respects I think that is true. We really don’t have a true ace depending on your definition of ace. Most of our starters are really middle of the rotation guys but cumulatively they are solid. When I think of an ace I think of someone like DeGrom, Scherzer, Buehler, etc… There aren’t many of those around though.
Look I am not trying to be a negative nellie. I hope Matz proves me wrong and give us 4 years of at least 2 WAR per year, but yes I am skeptical. I would probably be less critical about it if it were a 2 or even 3 year deal but 4 years seems excessive for a pitcher like him. I would have rather gone with the higher AAV than giving out the 4th year.
I know that $11M per season shouldn’t totally cripple our budget if he doesn’t work out but I also know that we can’t afford too many busts within our budget. We need our contracts to work out. As many have pointed out to me we can’t just paper over mistakes like the Dodgers and Yankees can.
The Cardinals just don’t have a good history with free agents. We are due for some good luck. Here is to hoping the worm has turned.November 25, 2021 at 5:48 pm #177449MrperkinsParticipantFree
I’m not a fan of give a guy more for shorter deal. If you don’t think he is going to be in the league in 4 years, don’t sign him. Or take out insurance. Matz has put up 30 starts in 3 of last 4 years, with the covid year the exception. Had a strong 2nd half last year and played the whole year in AL East with DH. I see 15 wins a year from him each year.November 25, 2021 at 10:22 pm #177451gscottarParticipantPaid - Annual
15 wins a year for the next 4 years? Wow, that is quite a prediction. Mo might get a statue outside Busch Stadium if that happens.
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