Fowler traded

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  • #153605
    Nigel T
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    When you have a group of young players, you want them to sit. You sign one guy who is flat out bat-shi- crazy and another sociopath who is completely egocentric, and you play those guys. This way you teach your team to overcome adversity. The smart plan would be sign Puig and Braun. Those guys are the future.

    #153608
    SoonerinNC
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    This competes the redoing the Cardinals that has been going on since Shildt took over the team in 2018. Gone are Ozuna, Martinez and now Fowler. All weak defensively. Fowler is very weak on balls other than those back and to his right. He and Ozuna had countless catchable balls drop in front of them.

    Now we have five young outfielders, four of which can play a solid center field and two a very good center field. Now we have a strong defensive team with the exception of Molina good on the base paths.

    If one of O’Neill, Thomas or Bader can emerge as better hitters we could become a dominant team. Carlson will hit. Too bad we lost Arozarena went in the Tampa Bay trade.

    I don’t expect us to pick up Braun or Puig. I looked over the free agents and didn’t see anyone left that would be much better than the youngsters we now have.

    #153610
    bccran
    Participant

    Brett Gardner off the bench?

    #153613
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    No to bringing in veterans on their last legs to take away at-bats from the kids. Time to sort out who is who!

    #153615
    jj-cf-stl
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Here’s to hoping O’Neill can match FA Duvall either of his last two seasons.

    #153616
    bccran
    Participant

    Never seen a team trying to sort out a complete outfield. At least not a contender. We shall see.

    On the other hand. Bader tasted the major leagues first in 2017. This will be his 5th year with at least some time in the majors. This will O’Neill’s 4th year with some time in the majors.

    Seems like they should have kicked it into high gear by now. JMHO.

    #153617
    Ratsbuddy
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    Free

    I put Bader and O’Neill in the same boat as Carlos Martinez and Anthony Reyes. 2021 is a make-or-break year for them. They have been around long enough. If they dont produce in 2021 then its time to move on and try something else. Cannot wait forever.

    r/Esteemed Rat

    #153619
    stlcard25
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    Paid - Annual

    Seems like they should have kicked it into high gear by now. JMHO.

    We know who Bader is. Great glove, solid bat against LHP but exposed against RHP, especially breaking balls. O’Neill simply has not gotten enough time in any season to say who he is yet. I know you’ll add up all the plate appearances and say it’s sufficient, but it’s just not. He’s been a different hitter all three years. He should get 400+ PA in one season and if he shows he’s a 4th OF with some pop and a good glove, we can adjust accordingly. Carlson will likely be solid this year, not great. But we can dream on him. Thomas and Williams have incomplete grades.

    2020 stats are not going to cut it Tom project a full, normal year. Unless we get a real upgrade like Nimmo or Conforto, I don’t see why we wouldn’t just give the kids a shot. The trade deadline will still be there and someone of value will be moved.

    #153621
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    stlcard25 said:

    The trade deadline will still be there and someone of value will be moved.

    Precisely.

    I just don’t get the line of thinking that not seconds after the Cardinals finally unload the aging veteran blocking the younger outfielders, that some posters want them to turn around and do the same thing again!

    #153622
    LACardFan
    Participant

    Free

    On the other hand. Bader tasted the major leagues first in 2017. This will be his 5th year with at least some time in the majors. This will O’Neill’s 4th year with some time in the majors.

    Seems like they should have kicked it into high gear by now. JMHO.

    Bader was kicking it into gear last year. He had something like 4 HR’s and 5 doubles (one of which he turned into a triple) in 10 games. The Cardinals inexplicably benched him for two weeks.

    Bader has had 1050 plate appearances over 4 seasons, and has produced 6.6 bWAR. So, he’s roughly a 3.75 WAR/600 player.

    Tyler O’Neil has had 450 plate appearances over three years. He has produced 2.3 bWAR. That extrapolates to 3 WAR/600 over a full season.

    If they are allowed to play full time, and Bader produces 3.75 WAR and O’Neill produces 3 WAR, we’ll be in great shape.

    #153623
    jj-cf-stl
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    NYM want a true CF – Bader
    STL walked away from their leadoff batter – Nimmo
    NYM would like to move Familia’s salary and acquire a LH pen arm – Miller
    STL still needs to add imo, but salaries are within 1.4mil (NYM send 16.4mil, STL sends 15mil)

    STL downgrades the pen slightly and adds to the lineup much more
    outfield of Nimmo, Carlson and O’Neill
    make it work 25! Who do we owe?

    #153624
    bccran
    Participant

    Never mentioned blockage. Just a complimentary piece who can come off the bench or step in if there’s an injury. A Brad Miller type, but for the outfield.

    #153629
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    I am dead set against picking up a complimentary outfielder now. Don’t get it until you know if you need it.

    If the Cardinals wanted that, they should have just kept Fowler and played him off the bench, instead of paying a second player to take his place.

    In addition to salary, such a player takes a 40-man spot, and most importantly, 400-500 plate appearances and a place on the 26-man active roster that would go to a Dean or Williams or Thomas instead. *

    No matter what is asserted, the mere presence of such a player would block others who are almost certainly more important to the team’s future.

    * Brad Miller, the example cited, was on pace for 462 plate appearances had 2020 been a full season.

    #153635
    stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    NYM want a true CF – Bader
    STL walked away from their leadoff batter – Nimmo
    NYM would like to move Familia’s salary and acquire a LH pen arm – Miller
    STL still needs to add imo, but salaries are within 1.4mil (NYM send 16.4mil, STL sends 15mil)

    STL downgrades the pen slightly and adds to the lineup much more
    outfield of Nimmo, Carlson and O’Neill
    make it work 25! Who do we owe?

    I love this scenario. A one year flier on Familia probably wouldn’t hurt as he probably has something left in the tank if he’s not a closer. We would still have Cabrera and Webb as lefties in the pen, and potentially Thompson or Libby for late season. Kudos to you for a splendid idea. I only wish Mo was on the phone making this move right now.

    As for who else we would add, I’d be ok with adding a prospect hitter like Julio Rodriguez, Alec Burleson, Luken Baker, Yepez, etc or a pitcher like Pallante, Seijas, or Ralston. If they wanted a better player, I’d concede up to Junior Fernandez or maybe Malcom Nunez, although I would not like it as much. But Nimmo-Carlson-Goldy-Arenado at the top of the lineup…😍😍😍

    #153638
    gscottar
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    Paid - Annual

    I would rather keep Bader than O’Neill because having elite defense in CF is very important IMO. Carlson and O’Neill can play CF but not at an elite level.

    #153643
    bccran
    Participant

    Let’s look at the experience in the OF since BDW took over –
    1997 – Lankford, Gant, McGhee
    1998 – Lankford, Gant, Jordan
    1999 – Lankford, Davis
    2000 – Lankford, Edmonds, Davis
    2001 – Lankford, Edmonds, Pujols
    2002 – Pujols, Edmonds
    2003 – Pujols, Edmonds
    2004 – Lankford, Edmonds, Sanders
    2005 – Edmonds, Sanders, Walker
    2006 – Edmonds, Encarnacion
    2007 – Edmonds, Encarnacion
    2008 – No one (Schumaker, Ankiel, Ludwick)
    2009 – Holiday, (Rasmus, Ludwick)
    2010 – Holliday, Berkman
    2011 – Holliday, Berkman, (Rasmus)
    2012 – Holliday, Beltran, Jay
    2013 – Holliday, Beltran, Jay
    2014 – Holliday, Jay, (Craig)
    2015 – Holiday, Heyward
    2016 – Holliday
    2017 – Fowler, (Pham), (Piscotty)
    2018 – Ozuna, Fowler, (Pham)
    2019 – Ozuna, Fowler
    2020 – Fowler
    2021 – No one

    Several points. The Cardinals have almost always had a big experience bat in the outfield. They fell a little short in 2008, so they got Holliday. They went out and got Berkman to team up with Holliday. They went out and got Beltran to also team up with Holliday. They got shakey in 2016, so they went out and got Fowler. They teamed him with Ozuna in 2018. They were down to only Fowler by 2020. Now they have no experienced bats out there.

    For almost the first time since BDW has owned the team, the Cards are going into a season with no proven bats in the OF. Not as starters and not as #4 or #5. Will it work? Sure hope so. No one knows for sure. It a big risk again this year. But as some say, if we need to add an outfield bat, we can always add one 2/3 of the way through the season. If it’s not too late. The Piscotty/Grichuk experiment didn’t gel. Let’s hope the Bader/O’Neill/Carlson experiment does.

    Gonna be fun to see how it works out. Can’t wait until opening day.

    #153644
    stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    BC, you are right that it is a risk. There is a lot of upside though, and as has been mentioned before, the defense is known to be elite. There are Gold Glove caliber players at C, 1B, SS, 3B, LF and CF and 2B and RF have some upside too. I’d be in favor of adding a true upgrade to the offense out there, but if we are just going to add someone who will hit 10% better while mucking up the defense, I’ll pass.

    For the record, I believe the outfield will be above average with the bat. I think we are gonna have a fun year of beating the NL Central down. I’ll stand by that til the end of the year.

    #153650
    bccran
    Participant

    I sure hope you’re right, 25. Last season the Braves led the majors in team total bases with 1,001. All the way down at the bottom of the list of 30 teams you can find the Cardinals with 650. That’s pretty sad. And a number of those young outfielders had a hand in it.

    #153651
    LACardFan
    Participant

    Free

    Carpenter & Fowler had fewer bases than O’Neill & Bader

    #153654
    bccran
    Participant

    Highest total plate appearances in a major league season, 25 –

    Bader – 427
    O’Neill – 158
    Carlson – 119
    Thomas – 45
    Williams – 7
    Dean – 189

    So out of our 6 outfielders on the 40 man, not one has put in a full major league season. That’s a bit spooky.

    #153655
    stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    It is, sure. But at the same time, there is definite upside, even with the bat. I know that you don’t necessarily buy that the COVID schedule had a big impact, but I do. Plus, what if they end up trading another one and he goes all Arozarena? You know Mo would never live it down.

    I still do think that there will be some guys available mid season and the rest of the Central is not gonna be strong enough that the Cards won’t be right there even if they underperform a little bit. Hopefully we will be talking in October about how the Cards young OFers are really coming through just like we hoped.

    #153656
    forsch31
    Participant

    Free

    Out of our OFs, only 1 has had an opportunity to show what he can do with the bat in the major leagues. That OF is Bader. All 6 potential OFs have shown some ability to hit in the minor leagues but have not done much in the majors in very limited time. Carlson and O’Neill have both been highly rated in the minors so they deserve an opportunity to show what they can do. Bader has had an OPS+ over 100 in 2 of the last 3 seasons and is an elite defender in CF. If 1 or 2 of those 3 fall on their face, any of the other 3 could get the opportunity to step in. OR, we make a trade before the trade deadline to shore up the OF.

    One thing about waiting until later is that Thompson and Liberatore get the opportunity to get ready for the majors. Oviedo and Rondon get more time to get ready for the majors. Also, CMart gets time to show whether or not he is healthy and throwing well. Mikolas also gets to prove he is healthy. All this makes it easier to trade a major league pitcher for an OF.

    #153658
    bccran
    Participant

    Forsch – I’ve mention this before, but here are the minor league numbers that stick out for me in 2019 –

    Games – 74
    PAs – 285
    .337/.400/.635/1.035
    HR – 18
    RBI – 58

    Don’t understand why more people aren’t
    talking about that potential.

    #153660
    blingboy
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Advice to them all, don’t get off to a slow start. Its sink or swim time.

    #153662
    forsch31
    Participant

    Free

    bc, I referenced Dean (without naming him) in my prior post. He would be in the 2nd tier of potential OFs. The reason he doesn’t get priority for me is as follows:

    He is in competition with O’Neill for playing time, at this time. He only plays the corner OF positions and hasn’t played an inning in CF since 2014. He is not a great defender. He is already 27 years old and is almost 2 years older than O’Neill. O’Neill strikes out more but has far greater power. O’Neill has been highly ranked by evaluators being as high as the 36th ranked prospect by 2 different raters. His 2018 AAA stats are .311/.385/.693/1.078 and he was basically 3 years younger than Dean was when Dean put up the numbers you cited. The only things that makes Dean better is that he strikes out less often and has a very slightly better batting average in the minors.

Viewing 25 posts - 76 through 100 (of 189 total)
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